May 31, 2021

1800: The Manhattan Well Murder Trial

1800: The Manhattan Well Murder Trial

IT'S THE FIRST OFFICIAL EPISODE!

What do 44 hours in court, 75 witnesses, and a 5 minute deliberation have in common? The first recorded murder trial of the United States. Join the ONUC gals as they discuss their opinions on the case, give advice on what not to include in your email address, and how Leah casually mentions getting ran over by a car.

Trigger Warning Level: Low

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Sources: Murder by Gaslight, It’s Hamiltime, and the Encyclopedia entry titled ‘Levi Weeks Trial: 1800’

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Transcript

You are listening to one nation under crime, a chronological true crime podcast. Each week, we go through our nation's history and discuss one case from each year starting in 1800. I'm Kayla and I'm Leah. And this week is our first episode, first, first official episode. So this is, this is exciting for us guys is so yeah, we should have had champagne should have gone. It was drinking wine and for my health, it's red, I'm drinking some, it's like a Moscow mule and a can it's Berry good she's classes. This class it's 10%. 

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00:00:39

ABV like I can ask. It's so good. Anyways, so yeah, this, so our first episode, so with our first episode, our first topic is the first murder trial of our brain new nation. And it's called the Manhattan well murder trial, and it was in 1800. And as we said before, it's the first murder trial of the nation. And that's kind of what our podcast is based off of is we're going year by year through kind of all of our nation's history and just kind of seeing what's going on each year, who's killing who who's being true. 

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00:01:20

<em></em> so, yeah, bear with us. This is our very first, our very first episode, so we can't promise everything's going to be perfect, but we'll see, we'll be perfectly delight. Yeah, we, we we'll we'll do that. So. All right. So yeah, it's 1800 few things that are going on in 1800 on January 2nd free African-American community of Philadelphia potential petitions apparently is a hard word. Yeah. The free African American community in Philadelphia, petitions us Congress to abolish the slave trade July 8th, Dr. 

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00:02:04

Benjamin Waterhouse gives the first cow pox vaccination in the U S to prevent his son from getting smallpox. July 9th, Mount Vernon gardens become the site of the first summer theater in the U S November 1st. John Adams becomes the first us president to live in the white house. November 17th. Congress holds its first session in Washington DC, and they actually did it. The Capitol building wasn't even finished, they just decided we're going to go out and have a meeting. And then December 12th, Washington DC established officially as the capital of the United States of America. 

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00:02:44

So kind of the way that we're going to go through our cases is in the very beginning, I'm going to discuss kind of like adjusted the events that are going to go on that year, but the bonnet of the year, right? If there's a certain area that we're going to discuss, and I'm going to talk about the area and kind of what's going on, and then we'll get into our case. So we're obviously in Manhattan, well murder trial we're in Manhattan. So Manhattan was originally inhabited by the <em></em> native Americans. It was very hard to figure out how to say that word. It's not, it's not say like it's spelled and Giovanni Dave at Rosano sailed into the upper bay in 1524, and he's the first documented European to visit the area. 

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00:03:30

So then it was May 24th of 16, 26. This is my favorite fact, the Dutch colonists bought Manhattan from a branch of the linear P tribe for 60 guilders or gold pennies. So do you want to take a guess at how much 60 guilders would be in today's money? 5,000, $24. Nice steel Manhattan was bought for . I think they got like their investment back on that pretty heavily. 

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00:04:12

So after Manhattan was purchased, it kinda changed hands for a while, between the English and Dutch is kind of like a game of capture the flag. And so the American revolutionary war, and I mean, as y'all will figure out I could go on and on about the revolutionary war. It's my favorite time period. And so I'm going to try and keep it as brief as I can because in a future episode, we'll kind of delve more into the revolutionary war for that time. So November of 1783, New York became the first Capitol under the new constitution of the United States. That is until there was a meeting done, done, which thanks to Lin Manuel Miranda is now known as the meeting in the room where it happens, Alexander Hamilton, Thomas Jefferson, and James Madison met. 

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00:05:07

And allegedly when the men left, the banks were left in New York and the south got the Capitol in 1790. So you got more than you gave. And I wanted what I got. So let's get into our first case. And I don't just mean the first case of our show. No. So December 22nd, 1799, her name is Gilly Elma. She goes by Elma. So we will talk about, say Elma easier, very much Gilliam Alma sands was seen leaving her boarding house. And she was last seen by a friend on Greenwich street, January 2nd, 1800 Elmas body was found at the bottom of a well and Lisbon and meadow Elma would never know how much the end of her life would mark the beginning of an entire movement for the United States should never a super sad. 

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00:06:06

She didn't it, she never, I mean, you know, depending these kids, depending on how you believe in the afterlife. Sure. She knows, but you know what I mean? I mean, you know, it's just one of those things. You never know how important you're going to be in your life. And she died. And we're talking about her today, couple of years later. Yeah. So the Manhattan, well murder trial took place on March 31st, 1800, and it is the first recorded murder trial in the United States. So we'll get into our story here. Elma sands was 22 and she resided at 2 0 8 Greenwich street in Manhattan in the rings boarding house. 

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00:06:48

The rings is the last name of the couple who owned it, the owner of the boarding house. Well, the owners really were Catherine and Elias ring. Catherine was actually Elmas cousin. So that's how she ended up there. And then hope rein was another cousin of Elma. And she also lived in the boarding house with them as well. And then the other woman in the boarding house was Margaret Clark. And those were the only other two female boarders in the house than Elma. It was just hope. And then Margaret, so were there other borders, but they were the only female border. Yes, there were other borders in the house and that will bring us to our next point. 

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00:07:33

Oh, well it was then in July of 1799 that a 24 year old carpenter moved in and shared a room with his apprentice. The young carpenter was levy weeks. So this is kind of an important thing. And I want to go ahead and insert this here, that our goal in these cases is to really focus on a victim and tell their story as accurately and as much as possible, but just in cases like this, they're so old, there's so little information on people back in this time. And so, unfortunately in cases like that, there's more information on the accused. 

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00:08:18

I mean, you know, the, in this case, there's more information on levy weeks than there is Alma sands. And as sad as that is, it's just kind of, you know, it just is, it is. And I hate that. So I also want to just go ahead and say that we'll try to refer to the perceived perpetrator as the accused, rather than the murder. And I understand that that can sound kind of odd for some people, but we want to be respectful. There are descendants of the subjects out there somewhere, and we're not aiming to place blame when we don't know where it should be placed. It doesn't mean that in more modern cases, I will not go after some of these people, even if they're still alive, but if they're confessed or they're proven, or they are a serial killer. 

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00:09:14

In my professional opinion, they can rot in their cell burn in hell, relive the torture that they did to their victims every day, pretty much like Groundhog day, just every day, you wake up, just experience everything, all the horrible things you did to those people everyday. Cause I can't stand these people. Some of them are just, they're sadistic in the gross. And especially in cases like this, there's not a clear cut answer, right? Spoiler alert as to what happened. And we'll talk more about that later. So during levy week stay in the boarding house, it was noted that he did pay close attention to both hope and Margaret, but it wasn't hope or Margaret that levy was sneaking into their room at night, that room would belong to Elma sands. 

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00:10:10

Very little is known about Alma sands. Like I said before, she doesn't even have a Wikipedia page, like at all really. I mean, it's, it's insane. And I'll go through our sources at the very end of the case. Cause I do have a list of sources where I got this information from. So we'll go through that. Then we do know that she was raised a Quaker and she was an illegitimate child, which I know sounds nitpicky, but it comes into play later, especially then exactly. So an Elmo was known to be sickly. That's really all we know about her that summer, there was a major outbreak of yellow fever and Elma did become ill during this time, even though it's not certain that she had yellow fever, she did get sick. 

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00:10:54

Elma was also known for having emotional outbursts and lovey weeks was also kind of known as a hot head in the fall. Elma mentioned many times to her cousin that she'd rather be dead and that she could overdose on laudanum and laudanum was, it's like an alcohol, solution-based like a Tincher it's morphine derived from opium. And at this time it was used as a painkiller. Yeah. Very, very, yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's all the, all the movies you see back in that time, this was the lady and you know, Elmo's attitude very quickly made a big 180 at the beginning of the winner and she was all of a sudden, very happy and super excited about her future plans. 

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00:11:46

Well, I know, right? So we're going to go into levy weeks a little bit. And this is where the story kind of tasks together and gets real interesting. So levy weeks was the brother of Ezra weeks who was a very prominent architect in Manhattan as our week's biggest accomplishment is being the architect for the Archibald Gracie mansion. And today that's still the official home of the mayor of New York city. Cool. And he built it. So at the time, the weeks brothers main project was a country house called Hamilton Grange, which was located in Harlem Heights in upper Manhattan, as your had strict orders to make sure this country house would be better than Richmond hill, which for a short time, it was the headquarters for George Washington during kind of the end of the revolutionary war, the residence of John Adams during his presidency. 

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00:12:42

And during this time Richmond hill was owned by Aaron Burr. I've heard. So I wonder why Hamilton Grange had to be better than Richmond hill. And if the nano, if the name Hamilton Grange sounds familiar, that'd be because Alexander Hamilton was the one who owned it. So yeah, unless you live under a rock pretty much, you've probably heard this day, you know, that Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr were at best frenemies and that's the best word to describe them for definitely for enemies. 

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00:13:23

We'll get into this into a later episode, but this is not going to be the last time you hear those names together in an episode on this podcast. And this isn't really the only odd connection to this case either. So remember how it's called the Manhattan well murder trial. Like that's, it's very, well-known it's established. So the Manhattan company was created around this time and has now evolved into JP Morgan. So yeah, it's been around that long when the company formed their charter was to make clean water, more readily accessible. And in return, the company could form a bank and sell insurance kind of like you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours, but just how most things get done. 

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00:14:06

And especially in that time, well, even more today, we're not going there now, but the company didn't hold up their end of the deal. And so they came under fire quickly for not making more of an effort to provide clean water. And we're accused of only trying to gain more power in the city, as it was growing. The New York Gazette published an article on May 1st, 1799. And this is so funny. And they said, quote, a law, my fellow citizens more in political alarming and corrupt has not been passed by any legislature since the revolution, a law, every clause of which is stamped with damning proof that it was not to benefit the public, but to raise up an object of speculation, to enrich those who were interested in it, that's all flowery. 

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00:15:03

I know. So essentially the New York Gazette was like, Hey, you made this sound good, but this is the worst thing that's ever been passed since the revolution ended. And by the way, you're only out here for yourself. You don't care about the public and the people. There were some pretty key founders of the Manhattan company. And do you know who one of them would be and say, I've probably heard of them. Aaron Burr was one of the key founding members of the Manhattan company. So the Manhattan company has also been referred specifically to as Aaron Burr's Manhattan company. 

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00:15:47

So in a major effort to keep up an image and the city Ehrenberg commissioned a well enlist Vinod meadow, this well was fittingly named the Manhattan well after the company who did pay for it. So as you can tell, it's very weird that the well Elma sands was found at the bottom of was a personal project of Aaron Burr's, which will continue to be more odd as we go on. Right? So the night that Elmo went missing, it was the evening of December 22nd. Elma was getting ready to go out for the night. She was getting dressed and had Catherine ring, the, the boarding house owner who was also her cousin, was helping her get dressed that evening. 

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00:16:33

Elma mentioned to her cousins. It's not really determined whether she had mentioned it earlier in the week, or if she just mentioned it that night. But she mentioned to them that Elma and lovey were going to a low that night, that night, that night there's wild speculation as to the events that followed. And there are a few different stories that we will go through. So it can kind of get like weird and kind of a little confusing, but it's, there's so many different stories. Why would she have to elope? We know why we don't know why. And we'll kind of go into more of that, that later as well. But they just said that they were going to elope. 

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00:17:14

They didn't really, there was no me, no reason given they were just going to go low. So it's assumed by many people that Elma and levy left the house together that night. But no one actually saw them leave together. So it's, it's not, it's not really true as to whether they did or didn't. And another story was that levy was downstairs by the door while Elmo was dressing that night and around eight o'clock people in the house heard someone come down the stairs, they heard whispering by the door and then the door opened and closed again. 

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00:17:55

But they don't know who the whispering was. I don't know who it was, but one would think that it would be those two with levy standing directly beside the door, then Elma coming downstairs. You would think, even though it's not really, it's not really well known as to what it was. Right. So it's December in New York city. So as you can guess, there's a lot of snow on the ground. Several people mentioned, they saw Elma riding in a one horse sleigh with two men and it's just, oh, it gets better. 

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00:18:39

Yeah. It gets better. Somebody has a quote in it and it's, it's, it's funny. So anyways, yeah, they saw her in a one horse sleigh with two men and it just so happens that Ezra weeks Levy's brother owned on Horsley. Okay. A friend claims to see Elmo walking on Greenwich street. And when the friend went to talk to Elma, the friend heard a voice say, let's go, but the friend did not see where or who the voice came from. So we've got one story where she was in a sleigh. We got another story where her friends saw her on Greenwich street and went to go talk to her. 

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00:19:20

This could be just at different times of the same night. Did it not? I mean, yeah. And that's, what's so weird about it is it's like the time of, of when things happened, it's like nothing was really adding up. It's very odd how all of it happens because it's, it's one theory. So you assume that all of these things are true, but then it's also another that none of them are true. Sure. Mean this is just hearsay. Nothing is, nothing is proven there weren't video surveillance cameras at this time. Not at all. So Alma told her friend goodbye and to have a good night before she continued down the street, it was just 30 minutes later that someone yelled murder and Lord help me in the area of the Manhattan. 

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00:20:02

Well, this part of the timeline is very important because this is when another part of a story comes into play. That is like way too convenient to ignore. After the screams were heard, people claimed to see someone in a one horse sleigh riding away from the area, but just one person. Yes. So neighbors of Ezra weeks said they did see him leave his home that night with the sleigh. And others said that they saw a sleigh beside the well with two men and a woman in it. And they were laughing like the group of people in the sleigh. 

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00:20:47

They were all laughing together and having a good time. Yeah. Like just chatting, having a good time, telling a joke, whatever, you know, I'm gonna get married, but no one can positively identify who was in the sleigh. And that time it's, you know, is it kind of accepted and that kind of accepted that that's who it was. And then, you know, the only thing that people can definitively say is that they saw as a, week's leave his house with his leg, but not who it was. You know, anything when he returned. 

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00:21:27

Yeah. So encyclopedia.com stated quote, the entire scenario involving the sleigh has a macabre resemblance to the song, jingle bells, except that no bells were involved. And the ride ended in cries of murder, which no one bothered to investigate. It's then stated that levy returned to the boarding house around 10 o'clock. And he was wondering where Elma was like, he's back, where's Alma. Like I'm here. Where's she? Where are you back? Did she say, where are you at? 

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00:22:08

Are you at, where are you at? He expressed, he expressed concern that she was out so late. And then he also denied leaving the house with her that night. And he said he never left with her. And nobody can prove that. Cause I just heard whispers, but they never actually saw them leave together. Catherine ring, the cousin boardinghouse owner, as we know her, she did this thing that I feel like you and I would totally do. Oh dear. And so Catherine was super suspicious when levy said he hadn't seen Elma, given everything that she knew about the elopement, but Catherine sat on her suspicions. 

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00:23:00

Ooh, she didn't like her dad. She had to see what levy was going to do. And then she told levy that she knew of the plans that him and Elma had to go get married. And she flat out told lovey you had something to do with her missing, like bright right out there. Weirdly enough though. Levy was extremely rattled that Katherine knew about the secret engagement and did not seem to want people to know about it. So not only did he not seem to want people to know about the secret engagement, but he just denied that there was even an engagement. 

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00:23:49

Oh. And then he was just like, okay, first of all, I'm mad that somebody knew we were secretly engaged. Second of all, we really were not engaged. And third I was at my brother's house that night. Maybe I should have started with this. I mean, you know, left the first of all out completely. So the timeline of the next few days is kind of murky, but some kids were playing and one of them found a Muff in the, well, you know, like the little thing you put your hands in. Yes, 

1  

00:24:21

Yes 

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00:24:25

We were. If you've listened, I'm sorry. We've got to, we have to put this in here because as soon as we both thought the same thing, as soon as I was writing that, I was like, oh God. So we, we work. Like I said, we work in an industry of which we never one thought we would be in two, it's kind of boring. Like, we're just going to be honest here, 

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00:24:49

But we have to have a lot of information. We 

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00:24:51

Have to have a lot of contact information on a lot of 

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00:24:54

People from 6,000. 

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00:24:57

Yeah. 5,600, I think kind of. Yeah. Like in that, in that range, it's a lot, it's a lot of people. What if these people, if you have, if this is like it, oh This is like a, get it ear Muff moment. So like it, yeah. It's, it's hilarious. And it's funny, but like just bear with me for a second. Leah onboarding is going to die. Her face is their road right now. So anyways, we have a customer who we, like we said, have to get contact information and he's businesses. 

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00:25:39

These are businesses. These are not just random people on the streets, but we have a customer whose email address begins with I Muff dive, business, email address, guys. Like we can not emphasize like this isn't 

1  

00:26:03

Pro tip. Number one, if you start a business, please start a new email, keep your personal email, private and you know, get an email of, you know, your company name or something like that. Not something crude. 

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00:26:20

Well, and what's so funny about it is it's like, it's like, but it's, it's like guys, when we say that's the email, it is a legitimate email address that we have had to confirm this email address before. And it has been confirmed like, yeah, that's correct. Keep going. Like, like 

1  

00:26:39

No, make them say 

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00:26:40

It. Yeah. Where we've been like, Hey, you want to verify that email address? And they're like, oh yeah, that was it. And then it's like, oh, okay. Like, 0.1. I don't want to know that much about personal life. I don't need to know. Nope. And two it's like, it sounds like one of those fake email addresses that you would like use to sign up for like a CA website and 

1  

00:27:02

False bravado. And I also thought of the play that we went to, which one? The, I know we one, we liked, we like place the one where the one got played like eight different characters. What was it? Oh, 

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00:27:18

Oh a gentleman's God's love and murder. It was if y'all never seen that and it ends up coming in your area, you've got to see seriously guys. It was one of those that kind of took us by surprise sneaker in. We didn't really expect to enjoy it as much. And it's so good. And this one actor that plays like eight parts and what's so crazy is you don't even realize it's him. 

1  

00:27:49

Yeah. And he plays men and women. Well, 

0  

00:27:51

I mean, it is insane, but yeah, it's called a gentleman's guide to love and murder. It's fantastic. If you ever get a chance to go see it, it truly was wonderful. I would love to see it again. 

1  

00:28:01

The line that I'm talking about though, which one? Well, this is what I thought of. It was a, they were ice skating and it's really largely just two actors in it. And one of them is a woman and the other one is a male and he there ice skating. And he said, do you mind if I put my hand in the whole Pedro, you know, obviously they met the hand warmer that, you know, people don't use those now. 

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00:28:31

Anyway. So to the MF, the Muff just happens to look like one that Elma had borrowed from a friend and Elmo was the last one seen wearing it on December 22nd when she was last seen right before Christmas. So some people say the kids found him the month, a few days after Elmo went missing. And then some say it happened 11 days later when her body was found 

1  

00:29:01

Due to the meth was found there. Anyway, the 

0  

00:29:03

Muff was found, 

1  

00:29:08

I've said that word enough to last minute. 

0  

00:29:15

Same off again. They crack again. 

1  

00:29:27

Sorry. 

0  

00:29:27

Yeah, we got issues. So either way, 11 days after Elma went missing, her body was pulled out of the Manhattan. Well, in Lisbon and meadow, it was January 4th, 1800 when she was found. So December 22nd is when she went missing. She was found January 4th, when the New York spectator printed, they printed this yesterday afternoon. The body of a young woman was found dead in a well recently dug by the Manhattan company. A little east of Mr. Tyler's, strong distribution. Yeah. We don't have a strong suspicions are entertained of having been willfully murdered will fully murder. 

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00:30:09

So it wasn't an accidental murder. It wasn't full murder, but nobody, this is what's so crazy. So, and nobody really knew it's just one of those things. It's like, it's so funny that it's called the spectator because it's like, oh, we just wildly speculate that she was willfully murdered. I mean, nobody. Well, that's more sensational. It is. It's like the national inquiry where it's like princess, DI's still alive question mark. And I'm like, God, I wish she was anyways. That that is a case I would love to dig into. But you know, who knows maybe, maybe a bonus episode down in America. 

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00:30:49

It didn't, but it's gosh, she's got such a good scene. My senior year of high school, all I remember is the princess diabesity baby coming out. And there were two of them. One of them was blue and one of them was purple. And if you have one of them, it's like worth a ton of, I didn't know, all beanie baby collection. And I had the princess dive in full disclosure guys. I had the princess di beanie baby. I also had the specially made crown for the beanie baby. And then I had this like acrylic cylinder that had a top on it that you put the build, like you put the little beanie baby and like keep so yeah. 

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00:31:33

I kinda like what people put like Barbies in or stuff like that, but it was for beanie babies and yeah, and I had, and I have no clue where it went. I could be a millionaire, but this beanie baby is just, it's gone. It's gone to the wind. I don't know where it is. It's it's really depressing. I did not know that I had a lot of beanie babies. It was, it was, it was a dark and wonderful time Feeney babies and Pokemon cards everywhere. So anyways, this is also too where we discussed it in our interrupt. So, but I'm going to go ahead and interject like our disclaimer here. I will always try to not go into deep detail of injuries or into especially violent manners of death on this podcast. 

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00:32:19

So I'm going to give you a trigger warning level and you can determine for yourself if you want to skip forward a few seconds or not, and these are going to kind of be the levels of which they are and that, you know, we can kind of go off of the levels are going to be low, medium, and high because why not? Since this is a true standard, right? Pretty, pretty standard stuff. But you know, this is a true crime podcast and there isn't going to be an episode without violence at all. Cause somebody does right. Well, well somebody, most of our cases, tragic things happen to PDs, right? 

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00:32:59

So because of that low level in this a low level trigger warning would be a very basic description. And it's pretty quick something that I would still listen to. Yeah. Something that like it it's, it's kinda quick. It's not great, but like, you're going to hear about injuries, but it's going to be quick. I'm going to be done 10, 15, 20 seconds tops. Like it's, it's not going to be very long. Then you're going to have a medium level, which would be, it's going to kind of be of a really violent description. 

0  

00:33:41

It's going to be more violent, more in depth, but still relatively quick, not, not one that not drawn out, right. I'm not going to dig deep into it. It's still gonna be pretty quick, but it's still going to be like a little cringy. And then there's going to be a high level, which the crimes are going to be pretty, pretty heinous. And the description is going to take a little bit longer. The only instances where there would be a high level would be a case where the description is just vital to the victim's story. And it's not at all for shock value or sensationalism. 

0  

00:34:22

I just want to make that very, very clear. I know there can be a very fine line between respecting a victim story and wanting the victim's story to be heard and not glossed over. But then the other perspective, which makes people not like true crime is that, you know, all the detail, right. Or it, or it makes people think that you're exploiting the violence that led to the end of someone's life. And that's never acceptable. You know, those things don't need to be glorified, but I don't want to disgrace the end of someone's life by not telling their story because every life is precious. 

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00:35:02

Every life is precious, you know, no matter what. And you know, if you skip over the way someone tragically died, you're also skipping over that part of their story as a person. And sometimes the way that that person died is almost as important as they lived. Yeah. And so, you know, I just want to make sure you know, that that's very clear. That's not at all what we're here for. We want to make sure that these stories are told as well as we can. And we do want to make sure that the victims are highlighted in these cases, you know, and there I'm going to go ahead and say, there is an episode that will come up soon that it is a high level warning and we'll go deep into it in the show, but it it's, it can be pretty bad, but I'm going to go ahead and let you know, before any of that happens, she's going to turn me off on that one too. 

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00:35:57

Yeah. Lee's going to have to walk away, but it's pretty bad. So after I tell you a trigger warning level, I'm going to give you a short kind of 3, 2, 1 countdown, regardless of the level. Even if it's low level, I'm still going to give you a little countdown in case you need a second to find the skip ahead button, you know, or you got little ones and you don't want them to hear, you know, I want to give you enough time that you can, you can make that decision for yourself. Right? Right. So with all of that said, this is a low level description, so it should be good. Right. But we're going to start it in 3, 2, 1. 

0  

00:36:38

Once the coroner was done with the autopsy of Elma, it was determined that she was badly beaten before she fell into the well, the coroner also noticed scratches and bruises on her body, along with a ringed bruise around her neck, indicating that she might have been strangled. It's not clear whether she was alive or already deceased when she went into the well, but there was a rumor that Elma might have been pregnant at the time of her death, but the autopsy rolled it out. And just to let you all know, that's, that's the end of the description. Wouldn't 

1  

00:37:12

They be able to tell if she was alive when she was put in the well, by seeing if there was water in her lungs, 

0  

00:37:19

Did they not? It depends on how deep the well would have been at that time. And because it was built relatively recently to when this crime happened, it could very well be that, that there wasn't a whole lot of water in there at the time, but that's the thing too, is, you know, then you kind of get into, well, was she alive when she went in? Was she not alive when she went in and then we're going to get to somebody else who says she jumped. And so, yeah. So it's, it's, I don't believe at that time it would have been very well, I guess, explored to see if she did, if it was a drowning situation, I'm not sure if that would be kind of an autopsy level that they would be at at that time. 

0  

00:38:06

And that's what I was kind of asking. Do they have, yeah. They don't really discuss that in detail as to whether, you know, that it did happen. And I think part of the reason would be the injuries that she sustained that makes them believe possibly that she was not alive when she went in because of what was on her neck and kind of everything else. Those could have been defensive wounds could have been that she was back, but you know, her back, you know, those marks could have been from the side of the well 

1  

00:38:41

Yeah. Scratches. 

0  

00:38:42

Yeah. You know, you're not sure. I mean like, and I hate to think of all those little, because it makes me cringe, but like you ever get like, you like scrape your leg on like bricks, 

1  

00:38:55

You know what I mean? 

0  

00:38:56

And it's like, and it's not a, and it's one of those that like, sorry guys, I know this is gross, but like you skin your knee and it gets that like fluid on top of it where it's not like bleeding, but it's like this I can't, but 

1  

00:39:10

There's a word for that stuff. I don't remember what it is. I'm not medically what it 

0  

00:39:15

Is, but 

1  

00:39:16

Your scab forms when 

0  

00:39:19

It's gross and I'm sorry. I'm sure there are people who are like screaming it at the park. What it is. Sorry. We know 

1  

00:39:25

Just a little bit about everything. 

0  

00:39:27

So there's so many bizarre things that happen in this case. And personally, I think this is the weirdest before Elmas official funeral, her body was quote displayed at the ring's boarding house. Like, Yeah. So 

1  

00:39:47

Let me guess Analia would sit up with a desk, but this is, this is like a different verbiage here. It's not like a way 

0  

00:39:56

There were, I would not have been there. No, there were so many I probably would have, there were so many people who came by to see the body that the crowd grew too large and her body was moved to the street to the street, like, okay. So kind of 

1  

00:40:16

Like an artist that isn't appreciated until they die. 

0  

00:40:19

Yeah. I mean, it's crazy. Yeah. It's 

1  

00:40:23

I don't don't put me on display. Like you can have a closed casket. That's cool with me. I don't see people in caskets just freaks me out. I'm not a fan. Sorry, segue, 

0  

00:40:34

Jodie, if you're listening 

1  

00:40:37

Or Michael, my husband, 

0  

00:40:38

All I can think of is the conversation that she had with JCT and y'all know the conversation to end Jody. I apologize if any mental and emotional , but that was, I'm sorry. You just talking about what you want to happen at the end of your life. 

1  

00:41:01

I don't want to be cremated. Like we did my dog. Yeah. And I poorly explained to my four-year-old nephew, but he was a Mastiff and he, he just 130 pounds and my sweet little innocent nephew asked me to marry him. And so thinking of, if you have 

0  

00:41:18

The children do not let them listen to this because we've all, Leah's already scarred one child for life. 

1  

00:41:23

Really. Okay. Yeah. But it was unexpected, but yeah. 

0  

00:41:29

Kind of sees too 

1  

00:41:31

Well. He asked me if we were going to him and I said, well, we, we left to methadone and they're going to make them smaller. You know, my, my philosophy is, is just answering the question. I don't give any extra information. You know, I was thinking like Willy Wonka has the shrink Ray. Like maybe he's thinking that I have some, I don't know. I mean, I was just trying to, he 

0  

00:41:54

Was 

1  

00:41:56

Very inquisitive. He is very inquisitive and likes to figure things out and I should have known better, but he was like, I told them they were ready to give us back, given back to us in the container. And he said, Ooh, that's a lot of giblets from a four year old. And then he, you know, requested, you know, could I see his tail? Could I see his arbol? 

0  

00:42:18

Yeah. So then we get proceeds to tell her sweet, innocent neck sweet. JCT that? No, I've been a burden. They've they're going to burn because that's easier than dismemberment . 

1  

00:42:38

And I was like, no, they really don't 

0  

00:42:40

Guys like I'm telling you that I'm definitely related to this kid for sure. I mean that, that's all I could say at one, he is his mother's son. He's just very curious, curious, inquisitive. Very, very much so. So yeah, that's Jodi, it's probably a good thing. You have the job that you do. That's all I'm gonna say for who knows how many reasons I'm just saying maybe he follows in her footsteps. Let's let's hope that, 

1  

00:43:05

I mean, or maybe he can be a surgeon or maybe he'll be the next step, or I hope it's the former and not the ladder and, or, you know, it doesn't combine the two. 

0  

00:43:13

We never know we'll hope that precious child. So yeah. They displayed her body in the house and then too many people were coming in the house, put her on the street. 

1  

00:43:26

Did they take like, you know, money? Was there a fee to see the body? That's just that's disgraceful. I don't like 

0  

00:43:33

That. Come see the body of You may pay two shillings to see for five seconds and 

1  

00:43:43

T Barnum, you know? 

0  

00:43:46

So yeah. And what's even worse is well even worse slash But like, that's what it sounds like. Like you have a hat turned upside down in front of like this woman, Literally, which is what is, so this is the strangest thing to me, but they had officials like authorities and police and friends that guarded her body while it was on the street. And it was reported that thousands of people came by in that time. That is just weird, which this only made the outrage of Elmo's murder, like escalate to a dangerous level. 

0  

00:44:28

This, I mean, that's a way to fuel a fire. Let me tell ya. So several days after Elmo's body was discovered a grand jury indicted levy weeks for the murder of Elma sands. So even though this is the first case, the United States, there were more than enough trials in colonial times. And there were weird roles. So at the time a defendant did not have the right to counsel, which if you don't know what that means, you don't have your public defender. You don't get an attorney period. You don't have the right to obtain an attorney if you are the defendant government provided or not, but there was a workaround to this. 

0  

00:45:15

You could hire your own lawyer if the judge gave you permission. So some people who had no money and the influence were just, you know, add a love, which again, another set up, welcome to 2021. But you know, I mean, I mean, in which we do know that, and we're not blind to that either. We are very well aware that people based on their poverty level there, if you're a person of color, we're well aware of how there are disparities in different places, but, you know, especially you can't, it's like if we're going to go back to this time, I'm not going to get on a soap box of things right now. 

0  

00:45:56

I can't, I can't put myself there. We have no time for that. But you know, you can have an attorney if the judge gives you permission. So what if you, okay, I know this is weird. This is weird. You know, this is Kayla's class weird thoughts where it's like the more, you know, right. Reading rainbow. So, which to me, I mean, think about it this way. You are, you steal your neighbor's pig. Okay. Your neighbor is brothers with the judge deems. The judge is going to be like, oh, please, do you hire an attorney? Please do I will allow it. 

0  

00:46:37

No, he's going to be like, oh, you're guilty. So levy weeks' trial was the beginning of allowing defendants to obtain their own counsel. And they actually were given a right to obtain their own counsel. And I mean, if you are levy weeks and your brother is the one who's footing the bill, why would you have one attorney when you can have three pretty brilliant ones, at least two of them. Anyway, the other one is, is very brilliant and you never hear about him. And so to know that there was a third one, which there's actually a, really, a really, really good book out there that I actually have. 

0  

00:47:22

It is sitting right here and it's called dual with the devil by Paul Collins. And it is about, it is about the first trial of the nation. It is very, very good, highly recommended. If you're interested in that timeframe, it's, it's written more of like a novel, not a probably would appreciate it. Yeah. It's very good. It's very, very, well-written. It's written like you're reading a book, just like a normal book. It's very conversational in that time. I appreciate that. It's very good. So, so yeah. So we're going to go through these men now up first, we have Henry Brock Holst Livingston. 

0  

00:48:03

There you go. Who went by the much less complicated name of Brock Holst, Livingston. Oh. Cause why go by Henry? You know, drop the Henry let's know. So we're, we're no longer Henry we're Brock Holst, Livingston. He was a Colonel Lieutenant in the American revolutionary war and he served under Phillip Schuyler ever heard of him next. He was the aid to camp two, which is a personal assistant in that time to major general Benedict Arnold at the battle of Saratoga heard of him. Then he was the secretary to John Jay, and then the us minister to him. 

0  

00:48:46

Yeah. And then he was also the secretary to the U S minister to Spain, 17 years after Brock Holst, Livingston, you know, later, after he was in the American revolutionary war, all of this stuff. And after being appointed to the bar and practicing law for like 17 years, Livingston became one of the three attorneys and lovey weeks' case. After this case, he went on to be a state Supreme court justice from 1803 to 1807. And actually Thomas Jefferson nominated Livingston to an official seat in the U S Supreme court, which Brock hole's Livingston held until his death in 1823. 

0  

00:49:38

So pretty good attorney like, you know, he needed the law, Thomas Jefferson, AK Davi digs. The one who recommended you to be a, to have an official seat in the Supreme. Yeah. Like it's crazy. The next two attorneys, we can't get into a full bio in this episode who we love. You'll get it in a later episode, no Aries, or maybe to Ben a lot to say about them. I mentioned them earlier in the story and I told you that they would come back around. So Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr rounded out the dream team for levy when they were on the same side, one of the only times they will be a Hamilton and Burr were the top lawyers in the state at the time. 

0  

00:50:23

And they had more than enough scandal to go around. And every one in New York knew about it. There's heavy speculation. That that's actually the reason the two men took this case because they sh they needed to try and elevate their image. Also keep in mind that Burr was majorly involved in the Manhattan company as well. Who funded the, well, that 

1  

00:50:47

Sounds kind of a conflict of interest now that I know this. 

0  

00:50:50

Right. So it's why I said all of these connections are so weird, you know? So at that point it would only make sense for bird to try and do everything, to preserve the reputation of this newly built well, you know, for his personal image. And then, then the image of the Manhattan company, as for Hamilton, as Laura and lovey weeks, we're building Hamilton Grange, which was the first and only home that Hamilton would own. It's possible. You know, Hamilton felt like he was obligated to help in the trial, but also as our weeks was very prominent in Manhattan, like in his own right. 

0  

00:51:36

And had a lot of money. So it's very possible to that. Ezra like just shoved money at the situation 

1  

00:51:42

And the brothers living in a boarding house 

0  

00:51:47

With his apprentice. It's very it's. Yeah. It's, it's odd. So full brothers away, half brother. I know. It's, it's very weird, but I mean, we'll see you later. Levy's brother being an architect definitely works out for levy later on. So we discussed it in our intro to this podcast. And this, this phrase is how this podcast came to be. So Lin Manuel Miranda wrote in the musical Hamilton quote, gentlemen of the jury. I'm curious, bear with me. Are you aware that we're making history? 

0  

00:52:28

This is the first murder trial of our brand new nation. The Liberty behind deliberation. 

1  

00:52:36

I'm saying 

0  

00:52:37

That in my hand, I did too. It was very hard to actually read. So the trial began on March 31st, 1800. It was prosecuted by another man with a wild name. He was a Congressman in his neck. His name was Cadwalader Colden. Oo, CAD Walter Colden, 

1  

00:52:58

I guess CAD one word. And then Walter knows calender, 

0  

00:53:02

C a D w a L L a D E R had while I, I don't know where it can. 

1  

00:53:08

My brother-in-law had a dog named cattywampus cause she worked for a good walk. Did not work. She walked it and they called her Patty. 

0  

00:53:15

Well, if she walked further, then she worked her good. 

1  

00:53:17

Well, 

0  

00:53:18

You know, think 

1  

00:53:19

About it because she got hit by a car, but then she got hit by a car. Get it straightened her out. 

0  

00:53:24

I mean, if one way to do it, I guess 

1  

00:53:27

Just saying, but yeah, that made me think of her. It's either going to 

0  

00:53:29

Take you out or fix 

1  

00:53:30

Ya. There you go. I've been whatever. Backbar 

0  

00:53:35

Sorry. Sorry. I got ran over by a car. One time I told you I ran over by a car. 

1  

00:53:44

This sister ran me over Jodie, 

0  

00:53:48

Jodie, if I could say your whole name on this podcast, 

1  

00:53:52

She did. She had a Volkswagen bug. It was like half of a half 

0  

00:53:57

On the other end. And she's like, that is not what happened. That is not, no, 

1  

00:54:01

This is all truthful. We've told this story together many a time. Cause it always gets the same reaction that you just gave. And it's so funny to me this as long ago, she was in high school. I was in middle keep in mind 

0  

00:54:11

Long ago, coming up hard on the age of 60. 

1  

00:54:17

I'm not 60 close to not even close. 

0  

00:54:22

Yeah. Anyways, how did you get ran over by? 

1  

00:54:28

The first thing is I'm very glad you had a Volkswagen because it's a very lightweight vehicle. So that we're thankful for that. So our driveway was not very long, but we stopped. She stopped at the very end of the driveway for me to get out and get the mail over, coming home from school. And I left the door, open, the passenger side door opened. And then I decided I was going to get back in the car to ride the, you know, 10 feet of where she was going to park. And I had my hand on the door and she pressed the gas and my thought was okay, I need to hold onto the door. Or I'm going to get run over. Is that thought came through the back tire, tripped me up and I fall over and the wheels, the back wheel comes up and it is on like right below my knee. 

1  

00:55:17

And you know, I'm trying to put words together, but Hey, there's a par on me and I'm the going. And all I remember is looking through the door at Jody and she's just got this look on her face. And she says, what? And finally I said, the car 

0  

00:55:32

Is 

1  

00:55:33

My favorite art. She says, what do you want me to do? If you were under, 

0  

00:55:38

To be honest though, I can so see Jody saying, what do you want me to do? The car is on you. What do you want me to do? 

1  

00:55:46

I don't like saying it hatefully, but she was meaning, do I need to go forward or go backward? I understand the logic now, but you're not thinking very logically when there's a car on you. 

0  

00:56:00

Yeah. I mean, one would thank you that wouldn't be a logical, a logical conversation. I can't believe you were ran over to talk to you that I can't believe you haven't either. But like I can't, I truly can't believe you were ran over by a car. I just have to say that. I love that. The whole way we got on that conversational topic was because you were about how a dog got hit by 

1  

00:56:24

A car. I mean, so I about like, I was just bruised and I did milk it for a long time. Jedi felt really guilty. My mom was going to punish her. 

0  

00:56:35

That's hilarious. So, so yeah, I can't. So our friend Cadwallader Colden later became the mayor of New York city Colton's case against lovey was circumstantial at best. Which if you're, if you're not familiar with terminology or anything in law, like circumstantial basically means there's no hard evidence. It's basically, oh, I saw this person here at this time and the timeline kind of matches up. I know this is not like a total like law explanation, but the best way that I can describe it, I know of one person in particular who probably cringing at the way, I'm describing it right now. 

0  

00:57:18

But you know, it's not the it's basically just this person was here at this time. These other people collaborated it. It's all circumstantial. There's no physical evidence. Tying him to 

1  

00:57:29

A friend. CAD is they might, can't say all the way, bad wallet or cold. I want to call him cattywampus now. Yeah, he is 

0  

00:57:35

The prosecution, 

1  

00:57:36

But so he ended up living in the house that yes, that <em></em> built, built. Okay. See, I was listening to 

0  

00:57:45

Yes, sure. We're so cold and relied heavily on witness testimony. He brought in the rings, the boarding house owners, the friend who saw Elmo on the street that night or think she's there was also another man who lived in the boarding house. His name was Richard, Richard Croucher. He was problematic. Like he flat out told people, oh, I know levy did it. Like it, it was very, very bad. And he, he didn't know anything. So 

1  

00:58:17

He really passing the hat. He and 

0  

00:58:19

Her body was all, he was, he was probably the one that's like, let's put her on the street. I'm just saying. So the men who found Elma in the world were also called trial and witnesses who saw that one horse open sleigh that night. But none of this is direct evidence. Proving that levy was guilty at all the defense, pushed back with a story of their own. And they are the ones that claimed Elma might have completed suicide on her own by jumping into the world. And the 

1  

00:58:48

Scratches could have been, but the ring around it 

0  

00:58:51

That, 

1  

00:58:53

Or maybe she does, she have on like a club. 

0  

00:58:57

Yeah. Nothing was said that she was wearing anything kind of like that, that was around her neck. If it was like a scarf or something, or even 

1  

00:59:04

A cloak or something. 

0  

00:59:06

I don't know anything about her personal life. Maybe it was a Hickey all the way. I mean, that'd be kind of hard. 

1  

00:59:14

I mean, I mean, you got some patients you really do. 

0  

00:59:17

Yeah. I mean, who knows? So, you know, again, they said that that might be what happened to her, which I mean, it's really tragic when kind of like the storylines up to, Hey, this looks like it was foul play. And then they're like, no, she jumped in on her own on first and there's no way to prove it either way. And you're just really you're, disgracing a poor woman. 

1  

00:59:42

She had a meth. We don't know if she had a scar 

0  

00:59:45

Came up again, but I'm sorry. Somebody needs to make that a t-shirt. 

1  

00:59:50

I will not wear it, 

0  

00:59:52

Make it a t-shirt but, but put like a Muff on, not, not though, but like 

1  

01:00:00

I put the article with a hand. I mean, still Kayla, 

0  

01:00:05

I'm sorry. I can't 

1  

01:00:06

Be my article of clothing warming your hands. 

0  

01:00:13

Made it for, 

1  

01:00:17

Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It was right there. I'm sorry, mama, if listening, sorry. Daddy, listen. 

0  

01:00:30

Sorry. Leah's mom and daddy. Yeah, I'm ordering. It's all right. That they, they, they already checked out by now. They're like, we're not listening to this, but if you are, thank you. So, you know, after the defense said that she jumped in on her own, they also brought in those who said Elma was depressed. How she talked about overdosing on laudanum. So, you know, they brought that in as well. She had 

1  

01:01:00

Talked about ending or lie. 

0  

01:01:01

Exactly. She had talked about it on previous occasions and people did notice she was very depressed. And then when her mood turned around, it would only make sense that once removed turned around, maybe that's when her and levy decided to elope or, you know, according to him, they didn't, or maybe 

1  

01:01:18

She thought they were going to the suspected pregnancy. He'd be like, yeah. 

0  

01:01:24

Which honestly, that's kind of, what I think could have happened is that maybe cause you can grace, somebody 

1  

01:01:29

As bomb to say no, there was no baby. 

0  

01:01:31

Well, and maybe you could say like, she, she was an illegitimate child herself, like we discussed before. And that was very, very frowned upon in this time. So it could be one of those things of like, well, we can't disgrace my name. Like I need, that's a big deal. We can't do. You know? So 

1  

01:01:50

His brother was very important. I can tell you 

0  

01:01:52

Exactly. 

1  

01:01:53

But you know, as brother Bob had been involved too, I can totally 

0  

01:01:56

See that it had been exactly. And so, you know, but they did say in the autopsy that she, you know, she wasn't pregnant. So, but you know, you never know. She could have been telling him that there's, you know, there's no telling and I'm not, I'm not trying to speak ill of the dead, but I'm just saying we don't know the conversations that could have ensued. Sure. So, you know, the defense also brought in witnesses who stated that levy at his brother's house, the night of the murder and that they never saw as <em></em> leave the house. So there's one camp that says he did. There's another, that he didn't after this is crazy. After a 44 hour trial, 75 witnesses called to the stand 75 and only one break in between the court finally adjourned. 

0  

01:02:47

Yeah. They didn't adjourn like for the day and say, we'll take one break at that one break was court ordered zoom tomorrow morning. But even then the case went well into the night that night. Yeah. So it was bad. So, and, and that's actually the court adjourned at 2:00 AM at the jury's request because the jury couldn't stay awake. Well, yeah, the next day, the judge chief justice, John Lansing Jr. He made it super clear that closing arguments were not necessary. 

0  

01:03:26

And before he dismissed the jury to deliberate, this is what the judge actually said to the jury. Okay. The court were unanimously of the opinion that the proof was insufficient to warrant a verdict against him. And that with this general charge, they committed the prisoner's case to their consideration. Like basically there's no proof. Yeah. You're by semi-final deliberate. There's your proof go? Deliberate. I mean, so, you know, given all of this, the 44 hour trial, the 75 witnesses all this time in court, how long do you think it took the jury to make a decision? 

0  

01:04:07

Oh, five minutes, literally really five minutes, five minutes. The jury done. I got to get to the house, right? The jury came back with a verdict of not guilty only after five minutes. Wow. So this was great news for levy weeks, but it didn't change. The fact one Elma is still dead that doesn't, it's never going to change that she's not power. Who exactly. So, and new Yorkers all still thought he was guilty because this, this honestly, I think was the very first trial of the husband, did it. You know what I mean? Like, they're always like, oh, it was the husband, which I mean, to be honest, in a lot of cases, it's husband has wanted to kill me more than what he may have told me one time that he was going to have a heart attack and die. 

0  

01:04:58

If I didn't stop talking, Michael hit me up. I mean, girl. So, you know, it was just bad, you know, you're, you're, you're just said that you're not guilty, but then everybody still thinks that you are, that has to move. Did he stay in the dead? So he left the city because of the rumors. And he moved to Deerfield, Massachusetts then to Cincinnati, Ohio then to the highway. Yeah. I mean, he just, he then went to Lexington, Kentucky, so he was just In one place. So he ended up finally settling down in Natchez, Mississippi, and I might not be safe to drive. 

0  

01:05:40

So he ended up marrying a woman whose name was Ann Greenland. And they had four children together just like his brother levy became a successful architect and the area. And he built Auburn mansion, which is not an Auburn, Alabama. It's in Mississippi. He built Auburn mansion, which today is a national historic landmark museum. So it's still standing. So I know, right in 18, 19 levy weeks died at only the age of 43. And 

1  

01:06:18

It's just 19 years after this murder trial. So he got, he moved a lot of places to meanings all those places and then 

0  

01:06:27

Yeah. And with four kids. So they, yeah, they couldn't have been very old. I mean, I, yeah, I have no idea, but yeah, that's it. I just, I understand that, you know, ages of people dying and stuff, it's certain times like, you know, I understand that that time, like <em></em> right, exactly. But 43, like just seems really young to me for me 

1  

01:06:54

At 60. 

0  

01:06:57

So yeah, it's been over 220 years and the murder of Elma Sans is still unsolved. That's very sad. It is. So, yeah, that's the story of Elma Sans, lovey weeks and the first recorded murder trial of the United States, 

1  

01:07:17

Hamilton and Burr. And what was the other guy's name? 

0  

01:07:21

Oh, our F our good friend with Henry Henry, but that's what, what he went Livingston. Yes. It was such, such an easy, it rolls off the tongue almost is as good as cold wallet or Colden anyway. Yeah. So it's, it's just insane. So you made it through your first episode? I did. 

1  

01:07:43

And I enjoyed 

0  

01:07:44

It. How do you feel, feel good about feel smarter? You feel smarter, you look smarter. I think I see a few more grays 

1  

01:07:56

Litter highlight. 

0  

01:07:59

So, so yeah, that's, you know, we had talked about the trigger warning levels earlier in the episode, and so that's kind of a low, low level. I don't think it's too bad. It's not great. But you know, like I said, if you've got kids in the car, if you've got, you know, anything you don't want people to hear and depending on 

1  

01:08:15

How, you know, how they, how attentive they are. Cause I have some nephews that would just not even JCT no, he would pay would be all in it. I know. Yes. What others would not, they would just be in their own little world. 

0  

01:08:29

So, so yeah. Do you, I mean, this is obviously all legit. We have no idea, but do you think that he did it? 

1  

01:08:38

No. I mean, there really wasn't any evidence that he did it's plausible. I mean, it makes sense, especially if there was a possibility of a pregnancy. I mean, and especially then if somebody had influence, it was really easy to grey somebody's mom and say, Hey, there was no pregnancy. Right. And to be able to falsify that, I mean, that would be very easy to do and to be able to pay witnesses or even bully witnesses, you know, to not, I mean, I don't know, 

0  

01:09:04

75 witnesses, they were the witnesses, 

1  

01:09:07

All the defense or the prosecution or 

0  

01:09:11

Combination. It was a combination of all. 

1  

01:09:13

Yeah. I mean, that's just, that's, that's a lot of witnesses. I mean, it sounds like someone's trying for a filibuster, you know, 

0  

01:09:20

It's just so much, but yeah. I mean, I, I I'm with you. I don't know either. I can't, obviously we 

1  

01:09:26

Can't seem to not be guilty. 

0  

01:09:28

Yeah. It's one of those things. Like I hate it because it also feels like he was railroaded at points, especially by that guy. I told you about Richard Croucher. He really went after him hard, 

1  

01:09:39

Even. I mean, my thoughts are even, he could have let his influential needed to keep appearances up, brother know his plans and his brother be like, Nama take care of this son. You know? I mean, that that's possible. I mean, maybe levy didn't have anything to do with it. And as rhe was the mastermind, he had his, you know, number two right there with him. And he was the one in the open slate with, 

0  

01:10:00

Or what if Ezra knew that they were going to elope and heat it and wanting to lose levy, who was his brother and one of his best workers. 

1  

01:10:08

Yeah. That's what mass, what I'm saying. Like he got wind of it. He's like, yeah. But put a stop to this. Gotta stop. I'm just saying, 

0  

01:10:15

Oh, look at the nice snow outside. Let's take this, take a ride in the, 

1  

01:10:19

And then somehow levy doesn't get in the sleigh and then no one saw them 

0  

01:10:23

Leave the house together. 

1  

01:10:24

Right. Well, and then there were two men with her, allegedly, you know, who knows who they are that could have been Ezra. And, you know, 

0  

01:10:34

They were all laughing in the sleigh together, but they were beside the one, maybe they were lacking 

1  

01:10:39

Each other. Yeah. You know? And like she had no idea that he knew what was going on. Well, enemy, 

0  

01:10:45

It was too late. I mean, two people can overpower one 

1  

01:10:49

Very easily, especially this two men and one woman. 

0  

01:10:51

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mean, and this was the time too, when like gender roles were very, very strict and women were considered frail and you know, things like that. And especially she was sick a lot. Like she's not very strong. 

1  

01:11:04

And the fact that she was stepping out with two men and an open slate, I'm sure that that rice and opera I'm just saying, 

0  

01:11:10

But then what was so crazy to me is that you hear someone yell murder. And 

1  

01:11:17

So then who 

0  

01:11:18

Wears the person who, because you didn't call them to the standard, you couldn't have 76 witnesses. Yeah. Drew line at 75, 44 hours and 75 witnesses. 

1  

01:11:28

That's it? I mean, that's five more minutes to spare it's 

0  

01:11:32

Guys. It's just insane. I mean, it really is. And unfortunately, a lot of these cases are going to be pretty frustrating. Some of them are pretty cut and dry, but you know, then there's like this one, there's a lot of speculation and he was, he was pronounced not guilty. You know? So I mean, at that point he's, 

1  

01:11:54

Well, mainly if you're looking at the case, the way it was presented, you know, the prosecution really didn't really, it was just hearsay. There was no concrete evidence. And, you know, I've watched how to get away with murder. I know Annalise would spin that yarn and you know, if you have reasonable doubt, then they're not guilty. 

0  

01:12:15

And that, and that is which I am sure later on down the line, we'll cover this case. And I know that it's real controversial, but Scott Peterson, oh, it's I I've done a lot of research on that. And I'm not, I'm not here to say whether he's guilty or innocent, but what I can say is it was a true case of reasonable doubt that there's so much doubt there. And he had a trial, he it's, it's called like a trial by media that basically the media made him guilty. Sure. And, you know, and, and like again, and I know like recently they just agreed to relook at his case. 

0  

01:12:59

And I don't know if you know that, but just like in the past couple of weeks, they just said they were going to look at his case. And I mean, and I think that in that respect, no, I don't think that there was a fair trial because I do think that it was a trial by media and there was 

1  

01:13:12

No way to not hear about it. And 

0  

01:13:13

His attorney even came out and said, you can hate this guy. I hate him. Doesn't mean he killed anyone and on the check at that too, but he could have, but 

1  

01:13:22

He gave a but innocent. But, 

0  

01:13:25

But I'm just saying like reasonable doubt guys, like reasonable doubt is the, like, it is the core of those trials. Because if you have enough reasonable doubt, I mean, you gotta be not guilty. 

1  

01:13:41

Nice. You think of an episode of the Andy Griffith show? My favorite show just got to say, friends is number two into Griffith is my favorite show. And aunt B is called to be a juror. And she says, I just don't think he's guilty. He, his eyes are too kind. And it turns out he's not guilty. I'm just saying it. They know. 

0  

01:14:01

So yeah, I think that about wraps it up. That's our, that's our first episode in 

1  

01:14:06

The books guys. 

0  

01:14:08

It's crazy. So yeah, you can follow us on Instagram at one nation under crime and on Twitter at ONU C pod. So one nation under crime pod, O N U C. If you love our podcast, as much as we do, please follow us on your preferred podcast platform. We dropped a few episodes all at once. So be sure that you follow us so that you can get all of the new ones that are coming out as soon as they come out and recommend us to your friends, your family, your coworkers ranger on the street. You know, I'm not saying grab someone's phone and do it for them, but maybe gently encourage them to do it in front of you. 

0  

01:14:54

Or if you, you know, you need to make small talk somewhere. I mean, I'm just saying it's, it's tough. It's fine. It's great. You know, and if you feel like it, I know we're only one episode in, but Hey, you might love us enough to leave us a five star review on apple podcasts that helps the podcast just get more notoriety kind of helps a few more people see us. If you have any questions for us, you can email us@onenationundercrimeatgmail.com. And if you listen to our intro, you know, of our first, our episode, zero, I guess, intro and intro to intro. If you have any good family stories, you know, maybe someone in your family who's famous or you have family lore. 

0  

01:15:35

That's just like wild. As we discussed. If you have family ghost stories, just put them to my attention. My name is Kayla, K a Y L I you know, or just something totally cool and unique. That's in the history of your family, email it to us. Like we would love to read it. We'll email you back and yeah. Thanks guys. For listening to us on this week's episode of one nation under crime, we will see you here. Same time, same place next week, same time, same time, different crime. And remember there isn't always Liberty and justice for all. We'll see you guys next week. 

0  

01:16:16

Bye.