June 7, 2021

1803: The Harpe Brothers

1803: The Harpe Brothers

What do you get when you combine two men and a multitude of crimes that span across four states? America's first documented serial killers Micajah and Wiley Harpe AKA 'The Harpe Brothers'. On this episode, the ONUC gals talk about one of the most vicious crime spree the United States has ever seen. This is the first episode that Leah will take about a 15 minute break while Kayla goes through a majority of the heinous crimes committed by the 'brothers'. The gals will also talk about sociopaths, psychopaths, and Anti-Social Personality Disorder.

Trigger Warning Level: High
Leah leaves at 42:36
Leah comes back at 59:34


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Sources: Murderpedia, Legends of America, Healthline, and The Natural History of Antisocial Personality Disorder by Doctor Donald W Black

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Transcript

You're listening to one nation under crime, a chronological true crime podcast. Each week we go through our nation's history and discuss one case from each year, starting in 1800 and Kayla and I'm Leah. And this week we it's a rough episode. Look forward to it. I know. Really? Yeah. It's, it's a, of a rough one I would say. And so we'll go through it, but most exciting is we're recording the day after our first three episodes came out. So we've, we're officially official. We have, and date with Dateline, who we love the posted us on their Instagram story. 

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00:00:48

And I messaged Kimberly back. She's one of the ones that's on the show and I was like, I could cry. Like so, so yeah, they posted us on their Instagram story and we have listeners so far. If y'all are listening, we have listeners in France and England in Nova Scotia and Columbia and wow. So welcome guys. We're international. We're international. I don't, you know, my boyfriend, I was talking to him about it last night and he goes, how weird would it be if y'all were more popular in another country than you? And I was like, that's so true. Not surprising, not surprising, but that would be, that would be really funny. 

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00:01:29

But yeah, so far we've had a pretty good bit of people who have subscribed to the podcast and who have downloaded it. And guys, we really appreciate it. And it's not just our family and friends, by the way. No. And based off of where the downloads and everything are coming from, like, we are not related to anyone in those areas at all, nor are we friends with people yet? We'd love to be a yes. So, you know, it's just super funny because we're not at all, you know, we don't know who the, like we have some in Ohio, we have some, I mean, in crazy places, we already got some in Texas and California, which I think is Kimberly. 

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00:02:09

Cause she said she's subscribing to the podcast. So, but yeah, we've kind of got a pretty, pretty big reach. So far our top listeners I think are weirdly enough, Atlanta, Georgia, they're coming out strong and then Mississippi. And then I think like behind them is Alabama and everything else. So yeah. I mean the sales got to support the sale. They are, that's where we are, but we got a lot of people in Ohio and stuff like that. Listening. So welcome guys. We're glad to have you, especially all of our newly found international listeners, some very surprised by so excited about yeah. 

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00:02:50

And we want to get to know you guys, so follow us on Instagram, for sure. If you are one of our international listeners, let us know. We would, we would love to say hello to you. It's so cool that you found our podcast. So we are going to go into this week's episode. And like I said, it's tough one. So we'll go into it. This is a episode four. So we're in the year 1803 and we are covering America's first serial killers, the harp brothers sources for this week. Wikipedia always my favorite murder. Pedia legends of America had a really good website on it, helpline, which we'll get into why I went in to help find. 

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00:03:32

And then this was a research paper by Dr. Donald W. Black and it's the natural history of antisocial personality disorder. Nice. So we are getting into a bit of psychology in this episode and to go ahead and preface it. I am not a psychologist. I'm not trying. I probably could be after all therapy sessions I've been to, but I'm not a psychologist, not in any means manner. These men have not been officially diagnosed with anything. This is just based off of personal experience and just kind of what I think personally, based off of, you know, everything that we know about them. So yeah, we'll go through everything that was going on in 1803, February 24th, Marbury versus Madison, the Supreme court of the United States established the principle of judicial review. 

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00:04:26

So that was the case of Marbury versus Madison that established that let's see March 11th, Ohio is admitted as the 17th us state, April 30th, Louisiana purchase is made by the United States from France. This one mom's birthday, not the same year, I would hope not. And then July 4th, which weirdly enough, July 4th, the Louisiana purchase is announced to the American people. So they actually had it purchased for a few months before they officially came out and said, you know, Hey, by the way, we bought a whole, Hey territory, this real big area land FYI, welcome to the U S so yeah, like I said before, you know, I know in previous cases we've kind of discussed the areas that we've been in. 

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00:05:20

We've talked about Philadelphia, talked about Manhattan, talked about Massachusetts. We're not going to have that this week because scarily enough, these men, their reign of terror goes so far that I can not cover all of the places they have been in reign of terror. This is ominous. It is it's bad. So, yeah, like I said before, today's case is especially horrifying. And I want to go ahead and put it out there. I know some, some people that we have listening may not be, you know, super into true crime, or maybe, maybe you're just here for the stories. 

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00:06:03

Maybe you're just here for our sparkling personalities, witty conversation. And if you are here for our sparkling personalities, we understand we get it. We're, we're, we're wonderful people we're best delights depending on the day. But, you know, I want to go ahead and put that out there for some people that this is going to kind of be a rough case. Our first three episodes were very, very mild in regard to details of crimes or the actual crimes that were committed. This is I'm going to go ahead and say, this is a high trigger warning level show, which means there are deeply disturbing crimes committed. And the details unfortunately will have to be put through out the episode due to, you know, just how prolific these crimes were and how many victims there are. 

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00:06:50

I'm gonna, you know, I'll try and be as delicate as I possibly can in the descriptions, but even then it can be triggering to certain people. So we've discussed it before. I think we discussed at length in episode two, we are big advocates of mental health. If this is not, I'm going to go through kind of the overall arching themes of what the crimes are going to be in this episode. And if any of those could be triggering to you, then just skip this one. We're fine with it. We love you. It's cool. You can skip this one. We totally understand. I mean, I may skip, I may skip a lot of this one. I don't know it's going to be skipping a bit of it. So, so yeah, this case includes murder. 

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00:07:35

It includes sexual assault, kidnapping, forced polygamy, and especially heinous crimes against children. Like I said, just a second ago, this is going to be an episode that Leah checks out for a bit and it'll be just me and you guys for awhile as we've discussed before Leah does not follow a true crime like I do. So, you know, I've quite literally listened to thousands of true crime episodes. I've watched the documentaries and docu series on serial killers. Me and my boyfriend actually liked to do that. That's kind of one of our weekend things when a new one comes out, I've read books on true crime. I've read mind hunter, I'm reading the invention of murder right now. 

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00:08:15

I mean, I've, you know, a dual with the devil I've read extensively on, you know, different cases. I fall asleep to forensic files. I watch criminal minds on repeat. And you know, we're just going to go ahead and put out there that if Matthew Gray Gugler is listening, by some chance, if he has found our podcast, our Instagram DMS are open and I will be accepting any message from you, sir, for those of you who don't know, that's, that's Dr. Spencer Reed on criminal minds. And I love this meme. That's like Dr. Spencer Reid would never do this. 

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00:08:57

Cause he's, he's just a gem. I love him. So yeah, I've heard and seen and read some gruesome cases. And like I said before, like, like my therapy, I'm sure my therapist would have more than enough to say about that. If you were Aaliyah, then you might want to skip over this one. And if you're a Kayla, it's, it's going to be rough. So I'm going to go ahead and put that out there. I've only heard one other podcast personally cover this case and it wasn't until they, and I believe it was wine and crime that covered it. And I had not heard about it until they discussed it. There were probably other podcasts out there that have covered it. But I want to go ahead and also say too, I don't try to listen to podcasts regarding the cases that we cover ahead of time, because I don't want my research. 

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00:09:46

I don't want to accidentally pull something from someone else's show. So if I have heard a podcast about it, or if I do know that one is out there, it's not that I listened to it for this show. I listened to it previously. And I just remember that it's out there. So yeah. I just want to make sure that Sam, because I do know there's podcasts out there. I think crime's is century covered lovey weeks. I don't think anybody's covered fails. And Fairbank's, I don't think anybody's covered that. And I, I'm not sure about Durham, but you know, just to say, I want to be sure there are some podcasts out there who have been accused over time. I'm not naming names of possibly pulling material from other places. 

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00:10:27

And so that's why I want to be very clear with the sources. I put the sources in our episode. They're also put in the notes in the bottom of the show, you know? So I just want to make sure that, you know, we're, we're well aware of where these, these are coming from because I have done some research journals and things like that. And you know, those people do a lot of work to get that information together. It is not me at all, that's doing it. So I just want to make that clear. And you know, you could be wondering if this case is so bad, then why Kayla, why would you be doing this too? Let's have some heavy sunshine with a charter. So like I said at the top, it's because this is the story about America's first serial killers, the harp brothers or their nickname, the bloody harps, the beginning of this episode is a little different, like I said, from our previous ones, because there isn't a central location where everything happens. 

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00:11:27

It's very creepy. And I, you know, I want to say too, that there's, this is another one of those cases that a general timeline is out there. We do kind of know, you know, X, Y, and Z happened here. These men went by different names there. They also went by nicknames. And I'll go into that too. So, yeah, let's see. In 1775, Willie harp and Micaiah harp leave North Carolina to work in Virginia as slave overseers. When the revolutionary war causes the two men to fight alongside the British as loyalists, August 24th, 1799, Micaiah harp is shot in the leg and the back, and then attacked by a posse who were hunting for them. 

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00:12:21

That you're about to say possibly I would love it if you're a tack tack rabbit possible. That's where everything. So sorry. Micaiah is when he's taken off of his horse by this group of men Micaiah is then beheaded. His head was placed on a steak at a crossroads in Webster county, Kentucky, and the road is still today called harps head road and 1803, Willy Hart is finally caught. So four years after the other is finally caught in the terror of the heart brothers finally comes to an end and then February 8th, 1804, Willy harp is executed by hanging. 

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00:13:08

His head is removed and placed on a state on nachos road as a warning to other Outlaws. Well, so the reason that I covered this case for 1803 is one guy's cases are hard to find each year. I'd say that there weren't really great record. It's hard, but 1803 is when everything actually ends for them. That's when it comes to head. Yes, that's when finally, you know, the, the last one is caught. I'm not calling them brothers right now and you'll find out why the last one is caught in 1803. And he did commit some crimes after the first one was murdered. 

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00:13:49

So, you know, 1803 is the year that all of it ended. So that's, that's what we're going with here. It works. Don't worry about it. Don't think about it too much. So like I said, I chose this story for a couple of reasons. It's the earliest documented record of serial killers in the United States and the crimes committed by these monsters ended in 1803. So like I said, that's why we're doing it for 1803. You know, I don't know if you were aware, but the harder, you know, it's harder to find crimes. The farther you go back in time. Surprisingly, even though we've been sick from the beginning and everybody's loved true crime. 

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00:14:33

So let's get started. William and Joshua Harper, who later took the last name, Hart immigrated in 1759 or 1760 at a young age from Scotland. They're Scottish. You don't want them to be Scottish. Well, these are the fathers. Oh, so the fathers were brothers, John and William Harper were the brothers. And they settled in orange county, North Carolina, between 1761 and 1763. 

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00:15:11

Joshua Harper. Well, yeah. So the father this where it's kind of confusing, William and Joshua are the children at this time. And John and William are the fathers and the fathers are brothers. So the men in this story, this is who we're talking about out. So Joshua would go on to be called Micaiah and he would be called Micaiah big heart. And then William would be Willy little heart. Okay. There's actually a, you know, their birth dates aren't known and their birth years are more likely just an educated guests by historians, based on when they died, they do go by their nicknames, big harp and little harp. 

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00:16:01

But for this, yeah, before this story, I'm going to use the names, McKayla and Willie, you will hear a, you know, like I said, I did listen to wine and crime and they did talk about it. And they referred to them as big harp and little heart. I found it somewhat confusing. Yeah. Because I didn't know. I couldn't remember which was which, so that's why I'm going to actually use their names. BK in Willie. So few things about the heart brothers, they weren't brothers, they just, they're just called that their fathers were brothers. Willie was smaller in stature than Micaiah, which is where the nickname's big harp and little hearts come from. 

1  

00:16:43

And they may have been raised like brothers. I mean, that's, 

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00:16:46

That's what it sounds like to me. They definitely were cousins. Their dads were brothers. Like I said, guys, depending on what source you look at there. And as I've said before, I do go off of multiple sources. And in those sources, I find the common thread. Yeah. I try to not pull anything. That's an outlier because some people will just like throw in little pieces here and there. It just doesn't really line up with what I've read. And so I kind of try and go off of overall, you know, kind of what the consensus is. And so, yeah, it said that their dads were brothers and that they were cousins, but that they were so close. 

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00:17:28

They did, you know, it was kind of like brother and I mean here in the south, like we get that a lot of people who have larger families, 

1  

00:17:36

I'm going to say my cousins. And I, we spent all of our time in our, our younger years, you know, we were all at my grandmother's house together all the time. And so we, we were, you know, we all, we, I mean, we were 

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00:17:49

Always together. So I, I totally, exactly. So these men that we're going to discuss today, they were river pirates, murderers and highway men who operated in Tennessee, Kentucky, Illinois, and Mississippi. And then they were from North Carolina, well highway men, which I didn't, there's actually a movie on Netflix called highway men, but it's not the same thing. So he have watched that movie on Netflix highway men at this time were robbers on horseback who actually targeted stagecoaches mail carriers, carriages, and then farmers coming back from market, which just really irritates me. 

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00:18:34

We do live, we do live in an area that has some agriculture. We're not we're well, where I live is more in the city where Leah is, it's the country mouse and city mouse meat. Yes. And so, you know where we don't have a whole lot of places that, that are working farms. There are some areas around here where we do have farmer's markets. We do have things like that, where you can go get loaded. He stands on the side of the road for these guys to like target these poor farmers on their way back from market, which indicates they have money. Right. They just spent all of their time. Y'all farm and ATZ. I don't know if y'all know, it's not easy. And so, you know, for them to, that's just, that's just made me really, really sad, you know, because they, you work so hard as a farmer and, you know, actually know somebody who did, who does work on a farm and they are a legitimate farmhand for cows and stuff like that. 

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00:19:32

You know, not, not so much, you know, crops, but it's a hard job guys. Like you don't get days off. It's not, it's not easy. So, you know, that's, that's that just hurt my heart. But surprisingly, the most sinister part is that their crimes were not motivated by anything. There was no, you know, most of the time when there is a murder or a crime, there's a reason for it. Right? And this is the first time we will talk about on our show that we know these guys were just freaking garbage and they are not. Yeah. And they, that's not exactly how I feel guys toning it down. 

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00:20:15

These are not just accused murderers. It's known these men are trash. Like they are trashed. They deserve to be discussed as trash. And when I talk about their crimes, you will more than agree with me when you hear the things that these men have done. It's just terrible. So the motives behind murder boiled down to four categories, or you could call it the four L's of murder. What do you think they would be? If you had to say the four L's of murder, less luxury, not really close, but now I'm trying to go in an element of jealousy, but I can't think of an L or it is dullest love, loathing and loot. 

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00:21:10

That's kind of close to luxury. That's all I was like. But yeah. So if you boil it down to the four, you know, those are kind of the four L's of murder. There's gotta be some combination of those, but motive isn't really enough for someone to commit murder. So most everyone knows that the three things you need to establish guilt in a criminal trial or what means motive opportunity. There are risk factors that will further contribute to murder, you know, reduction in serotonin surges of testosterone, hyperglycemia hypoglycemia. 

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00:21:51

Don't murder me. Today's I'm just kidding, malnutrition or eating too much junk food has led to it can also throw these balances off drinking alcohol, environmental pollutants. And then there are personality traits that can contribute to murder, like narcissists, narcissists, some not narcissist like the proxy proclamation, an antisocial behavior and histrionic personality disorders that are a part of sociopathology. So we'll kind of go into this because this spaced on, like I said, I am not a psychologist. 

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00:22:34

I do not, I didn't even stay at a holiday Inn last night. So I couldn't tell you that I'm a doctor either. So some people may not get that, but I, you know, so I, you know, I don't claim any of these things. I can tell you that this is what I researched and what I found and based off of these men, you know, this is kind of how I think that, you know, they might have been so antisocial personality disorder or ASP D it's a classification that sociopaths and psychopaths fall under. 

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00:23:15

It depends on who you talk to in the field of psychology as to whether sociopaths and psychopaths are different or the same. So they can be a little bit different, you know, and my personal opinion, like I said, not a psychologist, not a doctor. I think there is a difference between the two and we'll go into what that is. You know, I've had some unfortunate experience dealing with some people who could have fallen on the spectrum, not going to name names, but, and in my personal opinion, with dealing with that in someone, I do think there's a difference between the two, because some of these traits I saw in someone very prominently now looking back on it, right. 

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00:24:10

I've seen them. Yeah. And, but then, you know, in some other ways I didn't see something else, you know, that would have been there. So anyways, we'll go into it. I think, you know, at their core they are the same, but they're, you know, but there is also that one thing. So for someone to be diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder, there's a few requirements in order to be diagnosed with it. So according to the medical journal that I discussed before titled the natural history of antisocial personality disorder by Dr. Donald w block, he said, quote, SPD is a predictor of poor treatment response. 

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00:24:53

ASP D begins in early life. Usually by age, eight years diagnosed as conduct disorder in childhood, the diagnosis converts to ASP D at the age of 18, if antisocial behaviors have persisted while chronic and lifelong, for most people with ASP D the disorder tends to improve with advancing age, Dr. Black continues to say, the ASP D is associated with co-occurring mental health and addictive disorders, which can include major depressive disorder, bipolar disorder, anxiety disorders. 

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00:25:33

So Maddix symptom disorders, substance use disorders, gambling disorder, and sexual disorder. So given all of this, you know, if you do think you were living with someone who has a SPD, or you think you might know someone who has a SPD, this is kind of broken down of what some of those warning signs would be, if you weren't sure. And this is based off of an article that I found on Healthline, and it was very helpful list. The, you know, the person's behavior must show a pattern of three out of these seven traits. 

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00:26:15

So number one, they don't respect social norms or laws, and they consistently break laws or oversteps social boundaries. Number two, they lie and deceive, others use false identities or nicknames, and they use other people for personal gain. Number three, they don't make any long-term plans. And they also, without thinking of any of the consequences, number four, they show aggressive or aggravated behavior. They consistently get into fights or physically harm others. 

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00:26:54

Number five, they don't consider their own safety or the safety of others around them. Number six, they don't follow up on personal or professional responsibilities. This can include repeatedly being late to work or not paying bills on time. Not to say, if you are late to work, that you're a sociopath because like, hi, I'm just late. So, and the number seven, they don't feel guilt or remorse for having harmed or mistreated others. So in order to have the baseline of an ASP PD diagnosis, you have to have at least three of those seven, the more that you have of those seven, the more likely it is that it is a SPD. 

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00:27:37

And then, like I said, experts have varying opinions on whether psychopaths and sociopaths are different. But like I said, personally, I've noticed some research, you know, between personal experience. And then the research that I've had, it's that sociopaths can form attachments to people or groups. So sociopath can be attached to their family or to a spouse, you know, or just a friend, anything like that. But as psychopath, they're not able to form close attachments. So psychopaths not gonna have any close attachments. 

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00:28:19

They may pretend that they have close attachments, but they do not physic they don't feel any emotion for those people. It's an act it's not a whereas sociopaths genuinely do. So kind of the best way that I think about it is like, we all know this Norman Bates, Norman Bates would probably be considered a, you know, again, not a psychiatrist would probably be considered a sociopath because he did have very close feelings for his mother. And if you were a psychopath, such as, I mean, I would think Ted Bundy, maybe, even though he, he did love Liz anyways, big story, but you know, major serial killers. 

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00:29:04

I think there's, there's a definitely aligned for them to be psychopaths because they don't have any, they don't have that connection. Right. So I was about to call you, Ellie Lee is not gonna know who this is, but ed Kemper, who was the coed killer in California, who I know it sounds weird to say, but he, you know, Petri Lee has turned his life around. And I do respect him for that. He is one of the case studies that John Douglas, who's the mind hunter who created that entire, he created criminal minds, quote unquote. He created that division in the FBI. So ed Kemper was one of his case studies and ed Kemper, you know, I would say he is a psychopath. 

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00:29:53

He did not have, I mean, he killed his mother. He killed his grandparents. He killed, I mean, and there is some evidence that he did have, you know, he was loving to his grandfather, but anyways, basically psychopaths are just, they're not going to have any connection with anyone. They can be numb to anyone and everyone around them. So in my personal opinion, that's what I think the difference would be between the two. I can see where the lines can cross, but in my opinion, I think that being able to form an attachment and not being able to form an attachment are very important. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think 

1  

00:30:32

Not being able to form an attachment, it's kind of not human, right? 

0  

00:30:36

Yeah. You know, you're, you're just very, which again, not to say anything about this, because I do have a relative that does have Asperger's and is on the spectrum, but he, he can be very non-emotional towards, and they're saying there's not a right. And there's non-emotional. And so that's also too, or where we don't need to get the lines crossed because someone's seeming unemotional and detached from reality doesn't necessarily mean that they would be a psychopath like this, this person who is relative of mine, he just doesn't have emotion, but he, you know, he does with some things, but he can also shut it off. 

0  

00:31:17

I mean, hi. Yeah. I can shut my emotions off to, 

1  

00:31:21

I mean, my mom, I have seen her one time in my entire life, but my mother is not international person, but she's just, she's very steady, very, even very mild what's her birthday, her birthday is I can 

0  

00:31:37

Continue. 

1  

00:31:37

So she she's just Berry. I mean, that's just her, she's just steady. And she, she's never really ha she's never really done that. She's just always steady. And I mean, I've come to really rely on that because I'm all over the place. But you know, you think some people might be like, never seen her. I only one time, but I mean, but also she's from Scotland and, you know, show them bit, 

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00:32:04

Right. I mean, my mom listened to our first three episodes the other day. And at the end of episode two, you know, we did delve deep into some mental health things and some things that I had been through and some things that you had been through, my mom actually called me and she was like, you know, I could tell my mom, I love you mom, but my mom is way more way more emotional than I am. I am not, I am very detached. I can be non-emotional I don't let people in. That's just how I am. I'm I am very much I'll deal with it myself. I'd it doesn't matter. I won't ask for help. Right? No, not at all. So 

1  

00:32:39

When she was having a really bad time, I just said, Hey, I'm Kevin to your house. What do you want for the Mexican restaurant? 

0  

00:32:45

And I showed up. And so, you know, my mom actually called me and she was like, I didn't realize that a lot of that was going on with you at that time. And she was like, and I'm sorry that I didn't recognize it. And I was like, you know, and here's the thing though. I, I, if I don't want you to recognize that you're good at it, I will hide it. I don't want, because you know, there's just, and it's like, my mom said, I was like, you know, don't feel bad. It's nothing against you. It's that, you know, there's just parts of my life. I don't, I don't want to talk about for awhile, you know? And, and, and I told her, I was like, it's nothing. It's not like, you know, I just decided to talk about this. It's just that, you know, I, it was, it somehow was brought up in our conversation about the case. 

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00:33:30

And, you know, we do want to make sure that people are aware that, you know, you may think no, one's there, but there's always someone there. And, you know, and she, you know, she said, she's, you know, maybe it was, it was just your time that you felt like you could talk about it. And, you know, cause I'm in, spent several years now, since I, I dealt with like the, the depths of, of that. But, you know, it was just to say, you know, some people may exhibit some of these traits that does not mean that someone is inherently a sociopathic 

1  

00:34:06

And she's not disconnected. She's cheeses. 

0  

00:34:09

Right. And you know, like I said, you need to have three of the seven. So at minimum to even come close to a baseline diagnosis of antisocial personality and everything like that, you really have to have more. You can't have like, oh, well there's these two, but this third one may be like, it needs to be strong. Like, this is a pattern I have noticed this and don't go around diagnosing people. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah. So, but just to say, if you do think, cause people do who have a SPD, they do have a detachment from reality. 

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00:34:52

They may not be completely cognizant of how their actions can harm others. Like it said. So if you are in a situation that you don't necessarily feel safe in and it is related to that, just be very aware of it. That's all I can say. So just to just kind of go off, go off on a, on a rabbit hole, if you will, for a bit. So given all of these parameters, the scum of the earth, that is our topic today. I definitely think they fall under the sociopath category because they do form a connection with each other. 

0  

00:35:36

So they're not like they're very close to each other. Like they call themselves brothers, they outwardly made it look like they were brothers and they did kind of look similarly, one of them, I think it's Micaiah, but you know, there's only like drawings of people from back then. And he looks like a really Kept and crazy Hagrid. The photo grid is not very well kept the photo. I mean, just, he adds those like crazy eyes. But when I was scrolling, I was like, oh my God, who put a photo of Haggard in here? Like that's who he looks like. 

0  

00:36:16

So, I mean, even scruffy your Haggard. So, you know, but these men, they did have attachments to one another. So I do think that that would kind of fall more of as, as a sociopath cause they did very much care about one another. When one of them died, the other one was very upset, understandably, and, and everything. So McKeon, Willie left North Carolina around 1775 to go to Virginia and take jobs as slave overseers. But the revolutionary war changed. Those plans. The harp served as loyalists in the war and fought with the British, you know, we did talk about how they did move from Scotland. 

0  

00:36:56

So they, you know, they, they were younger when they moved here, but obviously as age goes, their parents were older. So it's very, could be said that their parents were strong loyalists and that, that could be where they have it from. But there's also other reasons that they could have decided to fight for the British. It was made clear soon after they joined that their motivation for joining the war was just strictly violence. Nice. They joined with exactly. They joined with other men who had the same thoughts and thoroughly enjoyed burning farms, assaulting women, and stealing from the Patriots. 

0  

00:37:40

During this time, Willie tried to assault a girl I'm being very delicate and saying things cause I I'm just, you know, trying to, not over, you know, anyways, no, we're not overexplaining but we're I'm, I'm not trying to. Yeah. So just know when I say that it, it is what you're thinking. He, so he, Willie tried to assault a girl and he was shot and wounded in the leg by captain James Wood, who, you know, was one of the Patriots in 1781, the harps left the army and joined a group of Cherokee Indians who were rating settlements in North Carolina and Tennessee. 

0  

00:38:24

They caught up with captain James Wood. Again, sound good for Mr. No. And as retaliation for wounding Willie, because it didn't, it didn't, you know, didn't kill him or anything. The harps kidnapped his daughter, Susan Wood and her friend Maria Davidson. And both of these women would serve as quote unquote wives to the harps consensual wives. Oh no, it was forced. This is what I'm talking about. When I say forced polygamy, this is it. There's no, there are no marriage papers on it. 

0  

00:39:06

It's more viewed as common law, but it's not clear who was married to who? Cause they just kind of shared later on these two women will become the quote wives of only one of the men because another woman will come along. But yeah, they basically just kidnapped James Wood because Jay, because captain James would prevented Willie from assaulting a girl, let's keep this in mind. I'm saying girls specifically. Right. And he shot him in the legs. So they retaliated by kidnapping his daughter and her friend. Yeah. Oh, and they're going to be our wives and we're taking them. 

0  

00:39:47

We're taking them with us. Yeah. This is just the beginning. I mean, so they then traveled in a group with four other men to Tennessee, a one pan and the group had the audacity to be overly concerned with the brutalized women and as a reward for his concern of the harps killed him. So this is where we're going to get into the, to the bulk of everything. And this is where Lee is going to step away a while, while I discuss, you know, the most heinous of their crimes, which every time I say heinous, it reminds me of law and order SVU, or they say like these crimes are especially heinous bill and Ted's two different people guys. 

0  

00:40:39

So I'll let you know when she comes back as well. And I'll put it in the timestamps below in the show notes, I'll put the time for when she steps out and the time when she steps back in, because this is a very long description and very drawn out because there are so many terrible crimes I want, you know, if you are wanting to skip forward, you'll be able to know exactly that timestamps come back to of when Leah will rejoin the group. So this is like I said, this is a high level warning and this is your one and only major warning for the show that I will count in. And once I count in, there will not be another trigger warning until I'm completely done with this section. 

0  

00:41:26

So I just want it to be made clear. It's a long run. It's a long run. It's going to be like 15, 20 minutes of, and I, and I'm not breaking it down individually because it would, we would be here for two hours with me doing trigger warnings into each and every single thing that happens. So it's just easier for us to go ahead and just get it done this way, be done. And then Leah will come back at the end. So, you know, so anyways, like I said, this is the one and only trigger warning. This is especially brutal or reviewed in the beginning. What some of the crimes could be just to remember, this is murder, sexual assault force, polygamy crimes against children. 

0  

00:42:07

If you are not in one a mentally okay. Place to hear that. Or if you are not to okay with hearing that and you, you know, consents key people. So if you don't consent to wanting to hear that you just skip forward to look at the bottom and it'll show when Leah, when Leah hops back in. So let's get, let's get to it. And we're going to start it in 3, 2, 1. All right guys. It is literally just me and you. Now, Leah actually has already left. She has someone in her family who has graduation. 

0  

00:42:50

So it actually worked out perfectly because you know, then she doesn't have to hear any of this at all. Cause my plan was to kind of have her go into the other room, but that doesn't really work. Cause this is just rough. It's not a good, not a good time, but here we are. I've got my truly hard seltzer is the tropical. It's the new tropical punch one, not sponsored, but if truly would like to sponsor us, I'm I'm open to any and all suggestions. So yeah, it's just, it's just us here. I'm the only one in the house other than two cats and a dog. So just going to be me and you one-on-one for a little bit. 

0  

00:43:33

So our right as we discussed before, there was the one man in the group that just had the audacity to be concerned about the other women and he was killed. So then we're going to continue on. So the group went on to settle in the area around where Chattanooga Tennessee is located today. The harps and their wives would live in the Cherokee Chicamonga village for the next 12 years, 12 years, both women became pregnant twice and the children were killed by Micaiah and Willie, like I said, it's, it's rough. 

0  

00:44:14

That's not even the worst of it. So stick with me guys. We're in this together in September, 1794, somehow the harps heard that Patriots were coming to raid the Indian village that they were living in. And they ran before. Like the entire village was just taken out. They set up a small campsite, not far from the village and lived there for nine months. Which guys can you think about that? Like, first of all, you're in an Indian village and this is the late 17 hundreds and you've been living there for 12 years, which I mean, while nothing back then really was modern. Like it is now. 

0  

00:44:54

It's like you're living in basically like in a tent for nine months. I, I don't, I don't think I could tell you that I'm too homeyness for that. So by 1797, the harps and quote wives, and I will refer to them as that because I don't believe they were willing participants in this so-called marriage. They were living in a cabin near Knoxville, Tennessee and Willy married a local girl who was the daughter of a minister. And her name was Sarah Rice. And then Susan and it's either Maria or Mariah, the other two original women became just the wives of Micaiah. So hints, the forced polygamy in a sense, only a year later, the murder spree of the harps began, which has been coined by historians as the most violent murder spree in our nation's history, which given everything that a lot of us know about true crime, it is very surprising that this would be the absolute most violent. 

0  

00:46:00

I mean, but to be honest, it, it really is. It gets I'm warning. You guys, it gets rough. First. The men killed two other men in Tennessee, one in Knox county. And one on the wilderness trail, the wilderness trail was kind of a 200 mile long stretch and it went from Virginia to Tennessee and then up to Kentucky. So in the winter, the men killed two travelers from Maryland. They had an interesting method. We will say of disposing bodies. They would disassemble their victims and fill their abdominal cavity with rocks and sink them in nearby water. 

0  

00:46:47

And I mean, that's kind of, it's one of those things that if you're a serial killer and you have like a quote calling card, which makes me and tangents guys, I know I'm sorry, but a calling card. It reminds me of in home alone when they decide they're going to be called the wet bandits and they go to put, you know, a towel in the sink to flood the house. And he's like, what are you doing? And he's like, is there a calling card? So those are, this reminds me of like, if you've got a calling card and you're trying to get away with murder, which it doesn't seem like these men were trying to get away with it. But I think that that type of disposal of would just be so specific that you would have to think that someone is catching on to what's going on, but know, that's just me next to a man named John Langford, traveling from Virginia to Kentucky was found murdered. 

0  

00:47:45

And the local innkeeper made the authorities aware that the harps were most likely to blame for this. The men were caught in jail in Danville, Kentucky in April of 1799. But as we are aware, this is not the end of the story, the minute skate from the jail. And when a gang of men tried to hunt them down, you know, they, they weren't able to be found it. Wasn't long that the young son of one of the men who helped the authorities was found dead. So this was a child who he was a child of, one of the men in this kind of like posse or gang will kind of go back and forth between the two terms. 

0  

00:48:35

But it's basically, there is a bounty out for these two and there's this group of men, posy gang. However you want to refer to it. And one of the men in that group, his son was found dead and his body was terribly mutilated. This is, you know, kind of going into the bounty and everything. The governor of Kentucky put out a bounty on both of both heads of the harps for $300, which today would be $6,000, roughly roughly $6,400. If we're doing it that way. 

0  

00:49:16

As they ran north to Illinois, they murdered two more men named Edmonton and stump near the mouth of the saline river. They came upon three men who had set up camp and killed all three of them. The pair then made their way to an area called cave in the rock and Southern Illinois, which is kind of a strong whole area of this river pirate, whose name was Samuel Mason. I'm going to go ahead and say right here, I kind of went back and forth is whether to cover Samuel Mason or not. He is also, if you look up lists of serial killers before 1900, he is also listed as a serial killer. 

0  

00:49:58

It's likely because of this kind of river pirate life that he was living. But yeah, you, if you ever researched anything about serial killers among this time, Samuel Mason, while he's there, he's not as prolific as the harp brothers and Samuel Mason will come back later in this episode. So just, just keep that name in mind. So the posse from Kentucky was still aggressively pursuing the harps, but unfortunately they stopped just short of cave in the rock, which like that's how bad does that suck? Like you get so close and you don't even know you're that close. 

0  

00:50:39

And then you think, surely they're not this far and you leave it. It's just, it's funny when there are cases like this, you think like, oh, what thing, what one thing could have happened that changed everything. You know, like what, what's one thing that could have just caused none of the rest of this outcome to happen. It's just insane to think about. So Mikayla and Willie, along with their wives and three children, again, quote wives, there's only one of them who is their kind of willingly. And their three children joined the Samuel Mason gang. The gang worked up and down the river, praying on slow moving flat boats headed toward the Ohio river. 

0  

00:51:25

So the Mason gang was known to be especially ruthless, but even the Mason gang was shocked by the amount of violence. The heart brothers enacted on their victims, which is pretty bad. So you're already in a group of people who are known to like terrorize other people and to be terrible human beings. And again, Samuel Mason is listed, you know, as a serial killer on other sites before 1900. So think about that. Even that gang we're like, look, these guys are a little rough for us. It's just reminds me of that emoji where it's just like the mouth goes, like you'll know which one I'm talking about. 

0  

00:52:09

When the pears started to make a habit of taking travelers to the top of a cliff, stripping them naked and throwing them off the edge. The Mason gang asked them to leave whether kindly or unkindly, not sure, but they asked them to leave. Nonetheless. So the harps then returned to Tennessee and in July of 1799, they killed a farmer named Bradbury, a man named harden, and a boy named coffee, more bodies were found in their wake, including William Ballard, who was found dissembled and thrown into a body of water. James Brasil, whose throat was slashed. 

0  

00:52:51

And also John Tali, who was found just murdered moving back around the Southern area of Kentucky, John Graves, and his teenage son were found dead. Their heads axed in Logan county. That's just such a bad way to go. Honestly. Like I think about that, I think about, I think about morbid stuff guys, but it's one of those things I've kind of, you sit there and you think, how would I want to go? Like if I had a choice, how would I want to go? And I can tell you ax to the head is my last, like, not even last, I don't even have it on the list. That's just, Ugh. 

0  

00:53:31

I can't even think about, it's just terrible, which, you know, just reminds me of other things that have happened recently. Like the Susan Cox Powell case, you know, with, with those children, we might cover that. It, you know, when we make it past 200 episodes, because guys we've got a long way to go till we get to that. But you know, just axing someone in the head, it's just Lena, we will cover Lizzie Borden. Don't worry. That is, of course the case that I'm going to dive into. I love things that are supernatural and stuff like that. So I'll definitely be going into that. But, and anyways, I'm talking around in circles cause I'm really avoiding the next part, but we've just got to dive in. 

0  

00:54:18

So an entire family, including their little girl and a young slave were brutally murdered while they were asleep in their camp, which again, they were sleeping. Like they weren't bothering anybody anyways. Okay. Okay. This is bad. And I'm sorry, and this is what I've been trying to avoid. And this is part of the main reason that I, I had to get Leah to step away. It was in August of 1799 that Micaiah killed his infant daughter by bashing her head against a tree simply because she was crying. 

0  

00:54:58

That's yeah, I have a daughter. She's not an infant anymore. Thank goodness. I'm not a infant mom. I'm very much a toddler mom. I figured out, but Ooh, that's, that's rough. Like in that tells you how sadistic these men were that like, she's a baby, she's an infant. She's going to be crying. You can't expect an infant to not cry. Like that's just how things go. Trust me. If they didn't cry, things would, you know, it'd be great, but that's not how things go. That's just not possible. You know? I don't know. Just, just things that I think about ish. It just shows how they do not have any care or regard for anyone outside of themselves, even their own children. 

0  

00:55:47

So there is another part of this. That is, that is pretty bad. So just hold on, guys, where you're sticking there with me, we're almost done the same month. A man named Trowbridge was found disemboweled in a Creek. And when the family was offered shelter with the Stiegl family, they killed another traveler, staying there, captain William Love. And then now the rough one guys who they murdered the seagulls four month old son by slitting his throat because he was crying. And when Mrs. Siegel came into the room and became absolutely hysterical when she found her son murdered, she was then killed too. 

0  

00:56:34

All right. We made it through that's the last of it. That's as bad as it gets. I mean, we're going to talk about some beheadings and stuff in a little bit, but if you listen through this part, the beheadings might make you feel a little bit better, but man, I know that was rough. This is why I tried to give you all a bunch of trigger warnings just to be on the safe side, because I know it's, it's not, it's not, not what you would want to listen to. The reason though, I included them in this case is because, you know, we discussed before. 

0  

00:57:16

I believe in our intro episode, maybe in our first episode, that someone's life, the way someone's life ended is almost as important as how they lived their life. And in my opinion, because that, that can work who you are as person, it can work who the other person is as person. You know, if you, if you are murdered and in this case, I think that this just shows with, with these being small children, it just shows the inhumane nature of these men just like terrible men. And you know, isn't their babies. 

0  

00:57:58

They don't know any better. They can't stop. Trust me. If they could talk themselves, they'd let you know why they're upset. But yeah. So glad we made it through. We're almost done with the whole episode in general. So go, go take your break for a second. Grab you, grab your drink regardless of what that may be. Mine's going to be truly a punch again, truly if you want to sponsor us, go for it. Yeah. So that's that part of the case. We're gonna go back to the normal episode. Now Leah is going to pop back in and we're going to wrap things up and see what happened to these men because satisfying ending, given the things that they've done. 

0  

00:58:49

And I know in the next part, cause I've already recorded it with Leah. Some of you might agree with me. Some of you might not, but I believe they got what they deserved and yeah. Being a mom myself. There's I mean, honestly, there's no limit to what I wouldn't do to someone who messed with my child, for my NSA agent, Brad, like chill. I'm not confessing to anything, but yeah, it's, it's, it's a rough one, but I'm glad you guys stuck with me through it. And we're on to the next part of the episode. 

0  

00:59:36

All right guys. So yeah, that's still worse of it. It's officially the worst of all of it is officially over. And Leah, Leah has joined us back in the podcast and that, so we're gonna finish up the story. The men were in the middle of which the men, the heart brothers were in the middle of plotting the murder of a man named George Smith when this posse or gang of people who were hunting them down. Cause you know, there was a bounty on them like we had discussed before. So there was this whole group, you know, like we said, that was running around trying to find them. And for those of you who did skip forward, they did run around this group of people who were hunting down. 

0  

01:00:22

The harps actually came super close to catching them a couple of times, but just really it's one of those things of like, oh, you were right there. If you would have gone a hundred feet more, you would have found them. So anyways, this gang ends up catching up to him and then Moses Seigel, I believe that's kind of how you say his last name. I did talk about the violence that happened with his family, just, just before this. So this group of men included Moses Seigel, who was the patriarch of the last family that we discussed. And on August 24th, 1799, the men took off on their horses to get away from the posse when Maceio was shot in the leg. 

0  

01:01:07

And in the back, the group caught up to him and pulled him off of his horse. Micaiah then confess to 20 murders, which we know is not accurate. It was way more than that. And then Mr. Stiegel spit maybe, maybe ear mouth for a second. You got, got kiddos from, and then Mr. Stiegel slowly cut off Mackay his head while he was still conscious, which you know what? You're okay with that. Good for you, Mr. Siegel. When I think of mean girls is like, you go Mr. 

0  

01:01:50

Siegel, you go blink Coco. Because if those of you who did stick around to hear the description, let me tell you something that he's lucky. That's all he got after what he did to the Steagall family. It, no you don't and you know, nothing will ever replace the loss he suffered because you know, as, as you all know, I won't go into what happened, but he's the only one left. It's just him, his whole family's gone and you, nothing is gonna replace the loss that he suffered by them. But man, I bet it felt good to get that revenge. I bet it did. I mean, just knowing what did happen and if you knew what happened, it's it's bad. 

0  

01:02:33

But just to say, like, I, you know, I don't condone violence against other people and I'm not saying that you should do that, but based off of what these men did, you know, that Moses Siegel was like, no, we're, 

1  

01:02:50

We're no taking care of it. Now 

0  

01:02:52

We're getting, and you know, I mean, like I said, there's no justice for it. Nothing's ever gonna replace your family. But you know, 

1  

01:03:02

I mean, that's what I was going to say. I mean, I understand the human part of us wants to have provide for things. You know, I, I have some friends who have had some things happen in their family that, you know, you you're like, ha how, how do you not seek revenge for this? You know, because that's our human nature. And my husband was like, I wish I could, you know, I could run up across that person, but you know, and, and sometimes, I mean, I get it and I don't know what will happen at night. And again, I don't want to know what will happen now, but revenge isn't always know the best way to get. 

1  

01:03:47

It's not always the best way to get up. You show more strength by not getting revenge. I mean, in my opinion, you know, the people that had the stuff happened to them, I have so much respect for them for how they handled this horrible part of their life. And you, you could really see Christ through them because they really, they handled it so well and with such peace, but you know, sometimes 

0  

01:04:18

I, it, yeah, and we, me and my boyfriend actually discussed this last night, because we found, he found this like app service, it's kind of like peacock or the, you know, like the downloads and it's called Tubi. Yeah. And they've actually got like some, really 

1  

01:04:34

One of my nephew's favorite shows or favorite channels to watch kitchen. 

0  

01:04:37

Yeah. And they have a movie on there that I had never seen, which is shocking because this is like right in my wheelhouse genre of, of movies, but it's called a time to kill. And it has a Samuel L. Jackson novel, right? Yeah. Grisham wrote it. It's Samuel L. Jackson. Sandra Bullock. Yeah. Matthew McConaughey. Hey Ashley Judd. I can't can't leave Ashley jot off. My boyfriend would be very upset. 

1  

01:05:10

And so this was on the list of ones that you have to watch. Right? 

0  

01:05:14

Well, it wasn't until we passed by it, I was like, oh, I haven't seen that. And he's like, well, I know we're watching tonight. And it is. And for those of you who don't know about the movie a time to kill it is a very racially motivated movie that is very good. And your emotions will be all over the place watching it. And something happens to a man's daughter at the beginning of the movie and the little girl is black and the perpetrators were white. And again, girl perpetrators, men it's and it's set in Mississippi. And so the whole basis of the movie is as the, at the very beginning. 

0  

01:05:56

And guys, this is not spoilers. This thing came out in like the nineties. So, and there's a whole book and everything, but the dad who is Samuel L. Jackson, he plans on when the two men are being brought to court as like their arraignment, after they were arrested, he sneaks into the courthouse the night before, and then he kills both of the men. Yeah. And because, and he did that because he knew, like, I think a county over a similar situation had happened in the men who did it walked free. Yeah. And he didn't want that. And so it's, it's this whole movie of like, morally, how do you put that aside? 

0  

01:06:36

Hi, how do you, because you know, me and my boyfriend were sitting there and I was like, absolute. Like I have a daughter. I can't, you know, and my boyfriend has a son and we were sitting there and you know, they're trying to pick a jury and everything. And I said, I'm gonna tell you one thing, you find that. Cause they said it in the movie. And I said, that is so true. You find young men who have daughters or have children and you get women on that jury. Absolutely. And, and you know, my boyfriend jokes last night, he said it again. He was like, you just need to be an attorney. I was like, cause I was telling him different things in the movie. And he's like, I really don't know why you didn't go that path. 

0  

01:07:16

You should be an attorney, but you know, it is that moral. W what do you do? What do you do when something like that happens? And so, you know, when we're watching the movie, it's a very good movie, but it can be personally, I would not want to have watched the first five to 10 minutes. So if I were to watch it again, I would skip through the first five to 10 minutes of the movie personally. But the rest of it is very, is not as bad, but the first five to 10 minutes, they kind of, you know, it's the crime that happens and everything like that. But yeah, I mean, and, and that's what came across me thinking about this guy. 

0  

01:07:58

And it was a Steagall is like, how do you, what do you do? How do you reconcile that? And at this time, this is like we said, this is 1803. Right. Is very different than as well. Yeah, this is right. This is not a of, oh, we're actually going to get justice. This is a time of like, you just going to have to do it for yourself. And like, you know, you can let the law handle it. And the law does, you know, handle it with one of the other brothers. But I mean, I just thought about it. And I was like, man, you know, for him, it's not gonna make it any better, but I can't blame him. Yeah. I can't blame him. 

0  

01:08:39

Yeah. And so anyways, after that Mackay, his head was placed on a steak at a crossroads near Henderson, Kentucky. And still today it is called harps head road. I did Google map it just to be sure. So that's going to be on our road trip, harps head road. So Willy Harper was, or Willy harp, sorry. Was able to escape and rejoined the Mason gang that we had discussed earlier. And they're they're terribleness. So Willie was able to go back to that gang possibly because Mikhail was not with him, but he rejoined. 

0  

01:09:28

And then he was still alive for another four years. And he was using the name, John Sutton at the time, unfortunately for Samuel Mason, who was, you know, the head of the Mason gang bounty was placed on his head. And it was too good for Willie to pass up. So Willie and another pirate, cause they were river pirates and other pirate in the group, James May killed Mason, cut his head off to collect the money to capitation. I mean a lottery. Well, and you know, and at this time when they it's, one of those wanted dead or alive. Yeah. Yeah. 

0  

01:10:09

And so they killed him, you know, and then went to collect the money. And finally in 1803, when Willie and James May presented the head of Samuel Mason to get their reward, the authorities recognized both of them is out walls. I mean, which cracks me up. And Willie still had a bounty out on him from previous years. Didn't think that one through and they were arrested, the men were able to escape, but they were captured. And at the end of 1803, they were tried for murder and sentenced to hanging on February 8th, 1804. 

0  

01:10:53

Willy harp was executed by hanging his head along with James May's head were removed and placed on steaks on notches road as a warning to other Outlaws, based on the records we have of the harps, it's documented that they killed more than 40 men, women and children. Yeah. But the number likely much higher. Yeah. These are just what's the documents. And because they travel right. And you know, just given how violent they were, like, they were one of those, like, they'll, they'll kill you. As soon as they look at you, like you cross them, they don't care. So what happened to the wives back in 1799, the three women who each had a child, each of the three women had a child and the third woman, which those of you who did not stick around for the middle part, the third woman was one that yeah, Willie Hart had met and married. 

0  

01:11:54

And so that was when she wanted to be. She did, they, yes, they did want to be married and she didn't know the extent of everything. And, but yes, and her father was like a Reverend of the town that they were in the heavens the whole thing. But then that's when the two other women became solely the wives of Micaiah and the wow. Right. So, so each of these three women had children and they were left back at the camp when McKayla and Willie ran from the gang, which led to Micaiah being killed. The women were taken to an empty block house in Henderson, Kentucky. 

0  

01:12:36

And on September 4th, 1799, the women were all charged with the murder of Mary Steagall, her infant son, James and captain William Love. They were tried for the murders, but they were released in October. It speculated that the women were let go because it was very clear that they were prisoners of the men themselves and that they didn't take part in the murders at all Sally rice harp, which was the one who married Willie willingly, went into this mess willingly, not knowing what it was, but her name was Sally rice harp. And she was the daughter of the minister. 

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01:13:16

And she moved back to her. Father's in Knoxville. And she ended up marrying a highly respected man in the area and had a very large family. Susan Woods stayed in Tennessee and lived a respectful life until she died. It's not known whether she got married or what happened to her, the rest of her life. And then, and Susan Lloyd was the one that was the daughter of captain James Wood. And then her friends that they had also taken Maria Davis, who at the time she went by Betsy Roberts, most likely because word had gotten around of, of everything and then being associated with it. Yeah. I don't blame her for that. Right. New life, new name. Exactly. 

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01:13:57

She married a man named John Huffstetler in September of 1803. They raged, they raised a large family in Illinois until their deaths in the 1860s. Also note, like I said, previously, Sally was the only one who was legally married to Willie and she did have the surname of heart. So after this, anyone associated with harps changed their last name. So they would not be connected to the heart brothers. Don't blame him for that more. And that is where our story ends on these guys. So we done, you made it. 

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01:14:38

So thanks for sticking with us. I think everything's pretty cut and dry in this case. Don't think there's any speculation as to what did or didn't happen. Right. So thanks for sticking with us on this one guys. First one that Leah had to cut out on. We'll see, see how many more we have that, that have to be done that way. So yeah. So, so yeah, that, that does it for us. Follow us on Instagram at one nation under crime and on Twitter at O N U C. If you love our podcast, as much as we do, please follow us on your preferred podcast platform. As of this recording, we are officially listed everywhere. 

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01:15:18

You can find podcasts, we were everywhere. So go find us. And if you are just now finding us, go back and listen to our previous episodes, we would love it. You know, recommend us to anyone, friends, family, coworkers, bring us up Starbucks, barista, anybody. And if you feel like it leave us a five-star review on apple podcasts. And if you do leave a review on apple podcasts, not to like be picky, but if you could just leave a comment with it, because if you leave a comment with it, it's actually counted more of a review than if you just label it as five stars. So if you could do that, that'd be great. 

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01:15:58

We do have a Patrion. If you would like to help with the cost of making and hosting the show, you can donate there. Just go to patrion.com and search for one nation under crime. And if you have any questions for us or just a really good juicy family story, you can email us@onenationundercrimeatgmail.com. We'd love to read them and we'll respond to you. We're here. So thanks guys for listening to this week's episode of one nation under crime, we will see you here. Same time, different crime next week. And remember there isn't always Liberty and justice for all. 

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01:16:40

Bye guys. We'll see you next week.