July 26, 2021

1809: The Mysterious Death of Meriwether Lewis

1809: The Mysterious Death of Meriwether Lewis

Meriwether Lewis. One of the most recognized names in United States History. The Lewis and Clark Expedition. Governor of Upper Louisiana. Relative to Thomas Jefferson. Why would a man as influential to the nation chose to end his own life? Or did he? This week the ONUC gals discuss the Whiskey Rebellion, the life and death and Meriwether Lewis, and the conspiracy surrounding his death.

Trigger Warning Level: Low

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Sources: Britannica, JSTOR Daily, History, Smithsonian Mag, Mental Floss, and NPR 

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Transcript

I guess what chicken, but it's 11, 11 make a wish. You know that it makes me happy. It's oh, it's 11, 11. And we're recording the 11th episode. Wow. I love that. That is pretty cool. You are listening to one nation under crime, a chronological true crime podcast. Each week we go through our nation's history and discuss one case from each year, starting in 1800. I'm Kayla and I'm Leah. Welcome to episode 11 guys. We've run out of fingers. 

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00:00:42

I know episode 10 will come out Monday, this coming Monday. So we record our episodes just a little bit in advance to get them out to y'all on time, taste a little bit of time to edit these things. So I try to try to make sure that we get them out in enough time. And this week we're in 1809 metaphorically, not physically. This is going to be an interesting case this week. So I'm pretty excited, pretty excited to get it to you. It might, I'm going to go ahead and forewarn you. I don't know how long this episode will be. This might be one of our longer episodes that we've done. 

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00:01:25

I could have split it up into two episodes. Just didn't want to really do that. So, okay. I've already planned all of the weeks out for the rest of the year. And if I haven't planned it to be two, then I have to change the whole calendar. It's a whole thing. She's not a control freak at all. Nope. Nope, not me. So let's see. Let's get into, well, what do you want to know what we're talking about this week? Would you like a little bit of information? Okay. So in 1809, we are going to be covering the story of Merryweather Lewis Mary with her Mary Lewis. 

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00:02:12

Okay. So our sources for this week, Britannica, the pertaining of website, the J S T O R daily I S T O S T O R. Okay. Did history.com Smithsonian magazine, mental floss, which actually was a really good in-depth very long article. I've read some articles off of them. They do some long articles, but very, very, very good information and NPR familiar cause we're fancy. So since we're in 1,809, we'll go through the events that are going on at this time. 

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00:02:55

So February 3rd, the Illinois territory is created February 11th. Robert Fulton patented the Steamboat February 20th. A decision by the Supreme court of the United States stated that power of the federal government is greater than any individual state. Alright. That was when that happened. March 4th, James Madison is sworn in as the fourth president of the United States. And George Clinton is sworn in for a second term as vice president. You know, Madison he's mad as a Hatter, just take medicine. 

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00:03:35

Oh gosh, just say, and I know in my head I was going through the rest of that May 5th, Mary Dixon Kai's becomes the first recipient of a patent, granted to a woman by the United States patent and trademark office for her. What was the patent for? She invented a technique of weaving straw with silk and thread. Interesting. So December 30th, Boston, Massachusetts makes it forbidden Boston. 

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00:04:16

They, Boston, Massachusetts makes it forbidden to wear masks at a ball, not allowed to wear a mask. So he can't, he can't ask balls, no masquerade, why no many faces or many shades. What, why? I don't know at the time of the case for this week, maybe a Phantom of the opera popped out and they were like, you know what, no more can't have this. And then I thought this was just kind of fun just because we're starting to see some people in history that are kind of born in these years, that we're going to come across later or that kind of were important to the U S history. 

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00:05:03

So I decided to go through, you know, if there are any people that year that we know of that are interesting, we'll go through them. So in 1809, Edgar Allen Poe was born on January 19th, Nevermore. He was a Capricorn, an Abraham Lincoln was born on February 12th. He's an Aquarius I wasn't born during the age of Aquarius. It was great. That was great. So in, so August 18th, 1774, Barry, whether Lewis is born on the locust hill plantation and Ivy Creek, Virginia, he was a Leo in case anyone was wondering. 

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00:05:54

I just think it's interesting. Sometimes the signs actually do line up to people's personalities and how things work. So it's pretty interesting. Sometimes anyways, October 11th, 1809 at only 35 Merryweather Louis dies under mysterious circumstances and ho and walled Tennessee 

1  

00:06:14

Poland wall. 

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00:06:19

So if does the name Merryweather Lewis sound familiar to you? A boxer 

1  

00:06:28

Merryweather, something 

0  

00:06:30

That's may, whether It's Floyd Mayweather, he's alive now. 

1  

00:06:39

I mean, I wasn't thinking historical. I was just thinking something Floyd. Yeah. For, yeah. It's all me. That's what made me think of, well, you asked me that's where my mind went. 

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00:06:52

So Mary, whether Lewis is the Lewis of the Lewis and Clark expedition. So we'll discuss the expedition more in depth in this episode. However, there isn't one specific place that this case has set in. So we're not going to have a location history this week. So we're just going to jump right into the case because it kind of spreads out among a few different places. We'll kind of briefly talk about. He will move and we'll kind of briefly talk about something that happened in that area or kind of around where it was. But with this story, you know, we're just going to kind of get into it. Merryweather Lewis was born to captain William Lewis and Lucy Merryweather in Ivy Creek, Virginia on August 18th, 1774. 

0  

00:07:38

So his name actually comes from his mother's maiden name, 

1  

00:07:42

Say his last minute. And his first name sounds like a last name. So 

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00:07:46

You feel better. It is pretty cool though. I like how they, how they did that name. The family lived on the locust hill plantation, which was around 11 miles away from Thomas Jefferson's Monticello Lewis. His father died five years later in 17, 79 of pneumonia while serving in the continental army. What's sad. Lewis's mother did get remarried after his father's death. She married in 1780 to captain John Marks and the family moved to Georgia. Captain John Marks was originally from Virginia and he was related to Thomas Jefferson by marriage. 

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00:08:27

Ooh, captain. All right. Stick with me trying captain Mark's brother was married to Thomas Jefferson sister. Okay. In other words, captain Mark's sister-in-law's brother was Thomas Jefferson. There you go. There you go. In my head. I kept trying, I actually Googled, I was like, what would someone be? My brother's sister was married. And I was like, this is I'm thinking about this too much, too much. 

1  

00:09:04

You know that name? It was a gift 

0  

00:09:07

Too much, too much. So anyways. Yeah, his sister-in-law's brother was Thomas Jefferson. When the family moved to Georgia, they lived on 293 acres near the broad river in what is now Oglethorpe county fun fact. Kenny Rogers was from Oglethorpe county. Rest in peace. The handler 

1  

00:09:31

That's one of my favorite songs. 

0  

00:09:34

I always loved Kenny Rogers, him and Dolly. You gotta love Dolly Parton's 

1  

00:09:38

Industry. 

0  

00:09:39

That is what we, 

1  

00:09:43

So my brother-in-law's sister speaking go, okay. She, she thought that it was Alan's industry. 

0  

00:09:53

Oh my gosh. There you go. 

1  

00:09:54

Okay. Continue. Find that amazing. 

0  

00:09:59

It just made me think of this of a long time ago. My mom used to have, I think it was my mom or my mom's office partner had this desk calendar that was misheard lyrics. Oh, I love it. And so it always, always at random times, we'll think of this and you know, the song rock, the Casbah The most misheard lyric was rock the cat box. 

1  

00:10:31

How about my sweet husband? He just sings what he hears. Bless it. Doesn't suppress 11. My two favorites. Kenny. Chesney's a bottle of wine and two Dixie cups. Okay. He would sing bottle of wine and two mics. Not right. Not right. 

0  

00:10:56

Very different night, two very different. 

1  

00:11:00

And then the other one. And he did not figure this out until we were watching American idol, like one of the first seasons of American idol and one of the contestants saying, give me the beat boys and feed free muscle. Okay. Michael says, why did he say, give me the beat boys. Oh, oh. I thought it was giving me the beach boys. 

0  

00:11:26

Oh, 

1  

00:11:27

Listen. Y'all he's Purdy. I love it. I let it. And so now 

0  

00:11:33

Actually though, I could see that I could see beach boys. 

1  

00:11:37

Oh goodness. But y'all, it's so funny. I mean, we've been married for 20 years now and we'll be going down the road and we'll be singing a song and I'll just start laughing and he'll look over at me and say, what is it? What I say wrong? It really say, and it's so I just laugh anyway, continue. We got off on a tangent, but y'all, that's what I'm at. Look, just send misheard lyrics and just send them in email. I'm in 

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00:12:02

Love Ms. Day. I 

1  

00:12:04

Love it. What did kids here? I mean, one of my friends, her daughter, jingle bell rock, you know? Oh, ho the mistletoe hung where you can see that's not diggable rock, whatever song that is. She was singing. Oh, ho the missing to, I mean, that's just classic. So yes, in those in, I love to hear those. 

0  

00:12:28

Oh, there was one that I had, and I can't remember what it was now, but there was one that I used to hear incorrectly all the time and I ended up figuring out what it was, but I don't, I don't remember 

1  

00:12:39

Failing me. This 

0  

00:12:40

Makes me sad. I know. Look, I do all the research right back off, unlike most well off families at this time, Meriwether Lewis didn't have any formal education until he was actually 13, but it was honestly probably one of the best things that ever happened to him. He learned how to hunt. And he learned about the outdoors pretty much all on his own. Well, 

1  

00:13:07

He lived on 200, some odd acres. I mean, 

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00:13:10

200, almost 300, definitely. Awesome. It wasn't uncommon for him to leave the house in the middle of the night, in the winter with only his dog to go hunting Louis. His love of nature probably came from his mom, Lucy. She has been listed as a doctress in many articles about her life. Wow. Lucy showed her son, which wild herbs were the best to use for medicinal purposes. It was also in the broad river valley that they lived, that Lewis interacted with American Indians for the first time. So the tribe that was kind of, from what I could understand, the tribe that was most common in the area at the time were at the Cherokee. 

0  

00:13:56

It's not specifically noted that this is the tribe that Lewis befriended, but it is assumed that that's them because from everything that I can tell and see, that would be the tribe that was most prominent in that region. 

1  

00:14:08

Since they're the ones that he would have come into contact with. That makes sense. 

0  

00:14:12

So Louis was sent. Yeah. Louis was sent back to Virginia when he was 13 to live with his dad's brother, Nicholas Lewis. So his birth father, like his actual father's brother, and he was educated by private tutors. Unfortunately his stepfather captain Marx died in 1791. Some sources say 1792, either way. He died of unknown causes. And the rest of the family ended up moving back to Virginia. When Louis was 20, he joined the Virginia militia and in episode 10, 11, 10, 11, 9 in episode nine, we discussed the militia in detail. 

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00:15:00

So if you're looking for anything about that and he actually joined the militia to help with the whiskey rebellion, we briefly touched on the whiskey rebellion in episode five with Alexander Hamilton, but let's touch on it just a little bit more, shall we? Cause we actually, cause we do have a lot of international listeners. We have a lot of listeners in Canada and in Europe, in the UK and everything. So a lot of people might not know what the whiskey rebellion is. And it's really interesting story. So the whiskey rebellion or the whiskey insurrection began in 1791 and ended after Merryweather Lewis joined the militia in 1794. 

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00:15:43

Basically when Britain taxed our tea, we got frisky. Imagine what can happen when you try to tax our whiskey? The whiskey tax was the first tax to be placed on a domestic product from the new government. The purpose was to actually bring more money to compensate for the amount of war debt taken on during the revolutionary war. Technically the tax was placed on all distilled spirits, but whiskey was growing in popularity because it didn't spoil like beer, but I mean, beers disgusting. Does beer actually spoil isn't it kind of spoiled just in general because it's, I wonder if it's because of like temperature or I don't, but I mean, beer is like busy or, you know, yeah. 

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00:16:40

I don't know. I mean, we're with liquor, like you can open it and you don't have to put it in their refrigerator. Like you can just leave it out. So I guess that's, it's just gross though. Beers disgusting. So I know it's a shock that the government enacted a law that people weren't happy with and they didn't consider the repercussions when they did, you know, imagine that shocking basically at the time, what was going on is that our poorest citizens and our farmers live rash under ration while wall street robs them blind in search of chips to cash in. 

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00:17:24

And essentially that's what was happening. Wall street didn't really realize what was going on when they made this tax. And they were essentially killing the industry farmers at the time. Yeah, because at the time farmers were the ones who were arguably benefiting from whiskey the most. And that's because for the leftover crops, wasn't much of a reliable option at this time, you know, massive silos, weren't a thing you didn't have really a good place to store it. So farmers would take the leftover corn, barley, wheat and rye, or fermented grain mixtures to make whiskey. 

0  

00:18:06

So they were benefiting from it because they were using crop that was left over, that was going to spoil any way. And they were making whiskey and then selling it and making money and whiskey didn't go bad where like, like beer would. So it, again, they were allowed, you know, they were able to keep it for longer amounts of time and didn't actually, it didn't have a time constraint on, you know, we've got to sell this now. Like it's gotta be done now. So they were the ones making whiskey and making money off of it. I didn't know that. Yes, I didn't either when I read that. And so that, that's pretty interesting. That made more sense when in the part of that song, when he says, you know, our farmers live ration ration, that made it made a lot more sense to me when he was talking about, about that. 

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00:18:54

So our wonderful friend, Alexander Hamilton, we discussed him in episode five and six was kind of like him. We, we like him a little. He was secretary of the treasury at the time. And he was trying to create a financial system, which would take the state and national debts and consolidate them into one. And this would be funded by the federal government. And the goal was to bring more money in foster national unity and help Americans prosper under the new nation. Essentially just go listen to cabinet, battle number one from the Hamilton musical. And it'll have the favorite numbers. It'll sum it all up. I love the cabinet battles. 

0  

00:19:36

Cabinet battles are they're the best. And Dover I'll show you where that fits. I think that was, it was right. Yeah. But that was to seal the cabin metals. I love, I love the cabinet battles you mad. Is that, does it take you a medicine? Yup. Yup. Yeah. We're shaped in that national Valdez in anyways. We don't have rights to those songs. We don't love them. Lynn don't see us. We love you and would be happy to sing them with you. I, I know where you with you. I know the entire musical just tag me in any time. I don't, I don't need, I don't need rehearsal well to dance. Yes, but I don't need to hustle for, for lines. We got this. 

0  

00:20:16

So while his intentions were good, maybe it didn't go as planned. The thought process was that the transportation costs per gallon or higher for farmers who lived farther away from urban areas, the per gallon profit was reduced significantly by the per gallon tax on distilling the alcohol Hamilton thought that this would actually be more of a luxury tax and the least damaging tax that could be enacted to the public. 

0  

00:20:56

So yes, in his mind he was saying, if we tax it, the tax will be less than the transportation costs to bring it to the city. So if we tax it, I think it was kind of like one that will deter farmers from bringing it to the city and they can sell it where they are and the tax isn't going to be that big of a deal. But it was, yeah. I mean, of course the urban areas were where everyone was buying whiskey. Like it, it's not, you know, you're in a farm, you're on farm land. There's not many people around you that are going to cause a lot of the other people around you. You're probably making it too. Yeah. 

0  

00:21:36

I mean, they've got plenty, you know, so his Hamilton supporters called this a sin tax and wanted it to raise awareness about the damaging effects of alcohol. How did that work out for y'all not? Well, the law went into effect in March of 1791 in districts had to start paying in November of that same year. So if you went to school in the United States, you will remember the term, no taxation without representation. 

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00:22:17

And that summed up the problem that Americans had with this new law. So that term was actually what was used before the revolutionary war. When they were basically saying the English, can't give us taxes when we have no say, and we have no part in, in parliament or the monarchy or anything like that. So you can't tax us. Unless someone from here is representing our best interests. Well, that's what happened here. You know, we don't have an official government set up yet. Like we do, but we don't, it's not like we don't have anyone show me a farmer who's helping us. 

0  

00:22:57

Who's who's fighting for us. You don't have, we don't have any say. So they were kind of taking on the same term of no taxation without representation as part of the whiskey rebellion. So many people think that at this point, the farmers just revolted, but that wasn't the case. Once the districts decided they weren't paying any more, the military was sent into in force the rules. And that is actually when all hell broke loose, the main ones who did this, were those living in the Appalachian mountains. I could honestly do an entire episode just on the whiskey rebellion because it is fascinating. 

0  

00:23:41

So many different things happened. And I kinda thought maybe we would, if we ever in guys let us know. But if we ever got into Patrion episodes, I think it would be a cool thing to go through kind of big, big events like that. That happened kind of more the history side of it than the true crime, because the whiskey rebellion is really fascinating. So it was the Lewis and Clark expedition. So are a lot of different things that happened in the U S and then also digging into like kind of how the FBI was started, how like all these different things came to be. 

1  

00:24:17

Yeah. Cause I got a history nerds and we like stuff like that. 

0  

00:24:20

So if anybody's interested in that, it would kind of just be like a separate Patrion thing that we would do just covering historical events, you know, maybe like an episode or two on Patrion each month. Not sure, but just let us know. But I think that would be really good. Whiskey rebellion is honestly fascinating and it could be a two hour episode. Like it is, there's so much to dig into, but I'll, I'm going to cut it short here and just, I mean, I can't, I could keep going and there was so much, but I'll cut it short here and just say that the whiskey rebellion came to an end in 1794, people died. People were tried for treason. People were executed, houses were burned and it wasn't until 1802 that the tax was repealed under the presidency of Thomas Jefferson. 

0  

00:25:07

The end 

1  

00:25:09

Was this when he got the presidency because of Hamilton support. Yes. Just asking. Yes. Okay. 

0  

00:25:18

So like I said, people died, people were executed. Holbec that like lots of stuff have houses of politicians were burned down and we talked about it in a previous episode. I don't remember which one, but we specifically said that his house was burned down during the whiskey rebellion 

1  

00:25:34

One of the first. 

0  

00:25:36

So we're going to go back to our friend Merryweather Lewis. And after the whiskey rebellion, Meriwether Lewis enlisted in the United States army as a second Lieutenant, this was during the Northwest Indian war against Miami chief little turtle. And he served in William Clark's chosen rifle company. And that was when they met and yes, Little's hurdle type that out. And I was like, Lee is going to love this kind of dude, chief little turtle, little turtle, little turtle. So Louis moved up up in the military rapidly. And in a matter of five years, he went from a second Lieutenant to a Lieutenant, to a captain. 

0  

00:26:18

He also served as an army recruiter and a paymaster. And then in 1801 president Thomas Jefferson asked Louis to be his aide to camp, which we discussed was kind of like a personal secretary, right. To him. So yeah, president Thomas Jefferson asked Louis to be that for him, which as impressive as that sounds, I'm not taking away any, I'm not trying to take away any accomplishments that he made. However kind of thing, the way that he got it was that his stepdad was related to Thomas Jefferson 

1  

00:26:56

That may have opened a 

0  

00:26:57

Door, I think. Yeah. I think that might've been more of how that kind of might've happened. 

1  

00:27:04

I mean, because I will say I was, I was able to get a job as a teller at a bank. When I, I was last senior year of high school, I did a work study and I got a job at the local bank. My dad worked at the bank and I was able to get a job there. However, I kept the job and was able to get a job there in the summers when I was a teacher, again, because of my performance, not because of my dad so that the door was open for him, but he was accepted as for that position because of his accomplishments, you know what I mean? 

1  

00:27:49

Like the door might've been open and he was like, okay, yeah, I've seen that. You can do these things. So yes, I will take you on. 

0  

00:27:54

I just think they're, I don't know. I think he knew him. So I don't know. It's just kind of how I see it. But I mean, Louis was, he was very intelligent in his own, right. He studied various subjects when he went to Philadelphia, including astronomy, botany, zoology, and medicine. He was appointed to the American philosophical society in 1802, which was a scholarly organization that promotes knowledge in the sciences and humanities through research, professional meetings, publications, library, resources, and community outreach. This was considered the first learned society in the United States. 

0  

00:28:39

It has actually played an important role in American culture and intellectual life for over 270 years. And it is still in place. That's awesome. Yeah. So, so, but so with Lewis, everything came from the botanist side of things. He was, he was an outdoor lover. He cared about these things. Like it said, he studied zoology. He studied, you know, different things with plants and organisms. Yeah. That's just kinda how he was. So after the United States acquired the Louisiana purchase, president Jefferson planned the court of discovery, which would be an expedition across the new land. 

0  

00:29:21

And Lewis was pretty much the perfect person for this job. Right. Because also remember when he was younger, he came into contact with American natives when he was young. So he was used to dealing with, you know, people not like him, exactly. And going into those areas and kind of being able relate to them already because he, he had grown up in areas where they work. So Louis started recruiting men and getting together all of the equipment supplies and boats needed for the trip. This trip was not for sightseeing at all. They were to obtain scientific data outlook for commercial purposes and diplomatic study for future use. 

0  

00:30:04

Jefferson wanted an accurate sense of natural resources and wanted to find a quote direct and practicable water communication across this continent for the purposes of commerce with Asia. So he was essentially, he was looking for the Northwest passage, but if we, if you know history and you did study this, the Northwest passage was not in the United States. Northwest passage was up in Canada. And what a lot of people at that time didn't understand was that it was higher up. 

0  

00:30:47

There was kind of a rumor that it went through the United States. So at that time, because no one had, you know, searched out to the rest of the United States to get, they didn't know what all was there. They didn't know what was there. So there was an assumption that there was a water passage that went through the United States kind of from DC, Boston, that area. And it was his job to go find it right. That's what they were looking for. The men were to place particular importance on making sure that it was known that the us was claiming sovereignty over the native Americans on the Missouri river, essentially making sure that the native Americans knew they were under us law. 

0  

00:31:32

Now we have authority over you. Nice. So once Lewis found out about the extent of the trip, he invited his friend, William Clark to co command. The expedition with him, Clark was named a Lieutenant and second in command because the secretary of war refused Clark, the same status as Lewis on the expedition. Why? Because he said that essentially Clark had not risen to the same height as Lewis did during his time in the military. And so Clark didn't deserve the same ranking as him and Louis had a big problem with us. 

0  

00:32:15

So that is why, if you look at everything, dealing with this expedition, this was the reason that the men referred to themselves as captain and co-captain to, you know, kind of hide the bureaucracy BS that was going on behind the scenes, because they didn't want, they wanted to present themselves as a front to the men that they were taking with them. 

1  

00:32:47

Oh, it makes sense. They wanted to be on equal footing. That, that sounds silly to me that they wouldn't 

0  

00:32:51

Exactly. Exactly. So the trip was to be the first trans continental expedition to the Pacific coast by the United States. I mean, if we're going to get technical Lewis and Clark actually got to the Pacific 12 years, years after sir, Alexander McKinsey reached it in Canada. So Canada had actually already found the Pacific and you know, the U S had to go and try and be like, oh, we're going to go do it first. And they were not the, they were not the first ones to do. 

1  

00:33:34

Nice. We have 

0  

00:33:37

The Lewis and Clark expedition spanned 8,000 miles, just three years taking the Corp of discovery down the Ohio river, up the Missouri river, across the continental divide. And finally to the Pacific ocean and the continental divide for those who don't know is pretty much a line that goes, it's essentially like it, it kind of wobbles and moves around, but it essentially is from if you took a line and went through Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico that's which isn't a divide. 

0  

00:34:19

It would be an angle anyways. It's kind of a slant, but whatever, all I can think of, like, all I can think of is they finally made it to the Pacific ocean. And you think you just stay in there, like you're on a cliff, you're overlooking it. And you're like, we made it. And then I would turn around and be like, damn it. I gotta go 

1  

00:34:42

Back. 

0  

00:34:45

We go back. How am I going to make it back? You're shit. You're like, we made it. We did it. Oh no, they 

1  

00:34:53

Can. We have to retrace our 

0  

00:34:55

Steps. So once the expedition ended, Louis was actually paid double the amount of money. He was promised by Congress. And he, he was going to be paid in land. And that meant that Louis was now the owner of 1600 acres of land. Wow. And Jefferson named him governor of the territory of upper Louisiana. So Missouri, essentially, he made him the governor. Wow. He published a territorial laws in the area. He supported St. Louis, his first newspaper and also establish the first may Sonic lodge in Missouri. 

0  

00:35:41

Interesting. You know, this should have been like great into story. He lived happily ever after, But I mean, it wouldn't be a mystery if that were the case. 

1  

00:35:56

Oh yeah. Somebody has to die. 

0  

00:35:59

So kind of all of this that we've heard up until this point, this is what we learned in school. This isn't happy. This is kind of how things went. We learned about the William and Clark expedition. We learned kind of about the whiskey rebellion, most parts of it, but you know, this is all stuff we kinda know. This is stuff, you know, for us, we study us history in school and like, yeah, we know about this. This all happened. What else could there be? 

1  

00:36:27

I mean, this is pretty happy. Wonderful. I just 

0  

00:36:31

Got to take a 

1  

00:36:32

Big turn. Oh no. 

0  

00:36:34

So it was speculated that Lewis was unhappy with the expedition. He was supposed to find an all water route to the Pacific and the trading post, they set up along the way weren't doing well. Lewis was also still working on all of the findings that he and Clark had compiled into journals. And Jefferson was less than pleased that the work wasn't ready to be published yet. The secretary of war William Eustace was refusing the expenses. Louis submitted for the expedition and kept asking for additional documentation, showing that the expenses were actually legitimate. So see, because if the expenses weren't approved, then Louis would have to pay for everything himself. 

0  

00:37:18

And that would have put him into bankruptcy. This guy, the secretary of war. Well, he didn't like him. He didn't like, he didn't agree with the whole expedition. He thought it was a waste of time. It was a whole big thing. And so when Louis was submitting all the expenses, and this is, you know, this is what needed to be done. It was being denied. I 

1  

00:37:38

Mean, he was paid 

0  

00:37:41

Double in land. 

1  

00:37:43

Could he not sell 

0  

00:37:46

Half of the land from everything that it said? It said that if he had to pay for everything, it would put him into bankruptcy and financial ruin. 

1  

00:37:55

I'm just saying they seemed to be real happy with him. So, I 

0  

00:37:58

Mean, yeah, there's, there's, we'll get into it. There's mixed, there's mixed feelings at the age of 35 in the fall of 1809 Lewis left for Washington DC to explain the expenses he was submitting and try to clear his name from the blacklist that it ended up on. So we are going to go down the list of people who had a grudge against Lewis at this time. First, there is a general James Wilkinson who was the first governor of the Louisiana territory that now Louis is the governor of the upper territory. 

1  

00:38:38

We had to give part of his land that he was in charge of. 

0  

00:38:43

So Wilkinson was an agent of Spain and possibly a double agent who might have been in on the burger conspiracy. It was said that because, you know, they said that Burr was trying to purchase the Louisiana territory. That general James Wilkinson, who was in cahoots with Spain, was helping Burr with that connection. And he was actually a double agent and Lewis knew about this. So second, we have Frederick Bates who was the Louisiana territory. Secretary Bates constantly complained to the higher ups in Washington, DC about Louis. 

0  

00:39:27

And it was not a secret. He was very outspoken that he did not like Louis. He did not like that. He was named governor third are the native Americans in the area while Louis was a major supporter of them. And very kind, there were still some who blamed him for, you know, claiming sovereignty over their land, although it was not his decision to do that. He's the messenger. And they don't believe in don't shoot the messenger. So since Louis was the one that they physically saw when this happened, instead of the diplomats who actually made the orders, it's not hard to believe that they'd be mapped for sure. 

0  

00:40:09

You know, to assume that it was him, that, that did this fourth. There were a lot of people in the St Louis area that were very upset about the decision Louis had made in regards to mining rights and the property of these mines. So Lewis would also take the Natchez trace to get to DC. And as we discussed in our heart brothers episode is episode three. I think I'm not forgetting which episodes we did things. Anyways. Our heart brothers episode that we discussed bandits were not in short supply on these routes. So there would be our fifth group. 

0  

00:40:49

So to say, as to who would kind of be after him at this time. So now we have all of our characters in this game of clue 

1  

00:41:00

To play Colonel Maister. 

0  

00:41:03

I prefer Ms. Peacock with a rope in the library. That's me with the wrench in the kitchen, 

1  

00:41:12

In a steady, 

0  

00:41:14

Ooh, wrench in the study. Interesting clues, always fun. It is. It's a fun game. We have Harry Potter 

1  

00:41:23

Clue. Continue 

0  

00:41:25

Got to love it. So Meriwether Lewis left St. Louis spelled differently with a couple of servants. It just hit me. There you go with a couple of servants and pack horses to Washington DC in the fall of 1809 Lewis made his way towards the notches trace. And once he reached it, he then started the 450 mile path, which went from Natchez, Mississippi to Nashville, Tennessee. It was estimated that this would be a four week trip to make it not just down the Natchez trace, but it would be a four week trip to get from where he was all the way up to DC. 

0  

00:42:10

Along this path, there were several ins for travelers to stay over the night before continuing their trip. One of these ends was called grinders stand near hoe and walled, Tennessee. What a name? Grinders stand Priscilla and Robert grinder, or the keepers of the end. And on October 10th, 1809, the couple checked in a new guest, Mr. Merryweather Louis. There are a few things to note about Lewis that we haven't touched on yet. And I haven't for specific reasons, C like we discussed before in the U we are all taught in our us history class in probably what eighth grade about the Lewis and Clark expedition, probably eight seventh, eighth, kind of around in there. 

0  

00:42:58

And then we do it again. We do it in kind of two groups. We do it in like middle school. And then we did it again in high school, seventh and ninth. Yeah, no seventh and 10th, seventh and 10th I think is right. Not that, that really matters to anyone, but you know, here we are education lady here. We learned about how they were great men. They did a wonderful service to our country and they were, and they did, but there is a darker side to the story that for obvious reasons were left out. Thomas Jefferson at one point noted that Lewis had a tendency to fall into depressive moods and often took a long time to come out of it. I mean, same, but after coming down from the high of being an American hero, Lewis became an alcoholic and the pressure of his new positions were too much for him to handle Louis uncommon. 

0  

00:43:48

No, not at all. Lewis was either bankrupt or on the verge of it at this time. And he had neurosyphilis Paris's or late stage syphilis on the great expedition. There were at least eight men who developed syphilis, supposedly sexual intercourse with women in the tribe was encouraged by the native Americans. And it was pretty common, kind of like here, use our women as our like welcome gift for coming here. Yeah, kind of. So that's kinda how it happened as unfortunate in August of 1805 Lewis wrote in a journal quote, I was anxious to learn whether these people had the venereal and made inquiry through the interpreter and his wife and in a callback to episode two, the common cure for syphilis and pretty much everything at the time was mercury while it was a cure for the disease. 

0  

00:44:54

It was also highly toxic and went into that in episode two. And that could have explained all of the odd behavior that people were noticing in Lewis, mercury and syphilis were actually both detected in his remains. So it is known that that was the case, mercury toxicity. I'll just say it again, has a major rings has a major range of side effects, but in this case it was for him, it was signs of dementia, rage, depression, and incoherent speech to the people we're seeing in Lewis at this time. That's so 

1  

00:45:33

Sad. I mean, it's just sad. Yeah. 

0  

00:45:37

So on this specific night that he checked into grinder stand, some of those behaviors were definitely noticed. According to Priscilla, she was the wife, Louis moved around in an erratic manner. As soon as he arrived, he sent the servants to the stable and then began pacing. Priscilla noted that he would walk up to her as if, to say something and then quickly turn around and walk away. Very weird. Louis was having dinner and took a couple of bites and then started berating himself. Not really talking to anyone, just talking about himself negatively. And finally, I am sure to the innkeeper's relief, Louis finally went to his room for the night. 

1  

00:46:21

Yeah. I'd be a little concerned about <em></em> complaining about himself to himself. Wow. 

0  

00:46:29

So Priscilla and her family went to their home, which was off to the side of the main guest area, but it was still close enough that she could hear what was going on. Yeah. Priscilla was startled awake late in the night to the sound of gunfire and a man crying out. Oh Lord. She checked the main house through a gap in the wall and saw a man stumbling and bleeding profusely through a gap 

1  

00:46:53

In the wall. 

0  

00:46:55

Yeah. From what I can understand, it's kind of like one of those houses, it was a wooden house that was built. And so I think there was kind of like two slaps that didn't quite match up to one another. And so she kind of was kind of like a little peep hole kind of in a, in a gap through the wall was what I could understand from that. So she was too afraid to like, look. So she, she took a look through that. He was calling to Priscilla for help and wanted her to quote, heal him and bring him some water. And I mean, what would any sane person do at a time? Like this? 

1  

00:47:34

Bring him some water, run, get him, 

0  

00:47:38

You would ignore them. Of course de 

1  

00:47:41

You wouldn't ignore them. Well, I'd get my husband. 

0  

00:47:45

Well Priscilla's husband. Robert was not home that evening. And she was so upset by what happened earlier in the night with him and what she just saw. She didn't do anything. 

1  

00:47:58

Oh no, you get somebody. I mean, you had to have had like a bartender or somebody else who is 

0  

00:48:03

Everything that I saw at the stables where the servants were, was very far away. It was not close to the house at all. She was in the house with her children. Her children were small at the time. So it kind of appeared that it was just Priscilla. Like she was her nothing. And Priscilla chose nothing. Sorry. 

1  

00:48:22

She chose run. And even those people are in your care. Something has gone on, you do something. 

0  

00:48:30

I said, not my monkeys, not my circus. And went back to the 

1  

00:48:34

Circus. 

0  

00:48:36

Not that one. She she's like, I'm sorry. I clocked out for the night. This is not, that's horrible. It's a stop. My job. They loaned 

1  

00:48:44

Her. So 

0  

00:48:46

Louis was found the next morning by the servants with two bullet wounds. And this is a trigger warning here. We're not going to have any major trigger warnings in this episode because I'm not, there's not a big autopsy. There's not a, you know, anything really deep, but I will say this, this is kind of a slight trigger warnings. Just skip ahead, like five seconds, if you could be sensitive to it. But he was found with two bullet wounds in a deep slash across his throat with a razor blade eight. He was dead by sunrise. 

1  

00:49:21

So she could possibly have helped him. That's that's on her, that's on her. She could have helped me. She could have run to the stables and gotten somebody to tell him, 

0  

00:49:32

I understand like the staples were not close at all. Like it took a while for the servants to see cause the servants never even heard anything that happened. So anyways, well, we'll get into, we'll get into more. So Priscilla, wasn't the only person who saw the odd behavior from Lewis though, but there's caveat to it. James Neely was a federal agent who is traveling the same part of the Natchez trace as Lewis. And he, you know, the two kind of teamed up together as they were going along the trail. It's kind of like when you're on the interstate and you're kind of going fast and you see another car, that's also kind of going fast. And so you kind of just, both of you just kind of go fast at the same time and you kind of like tag team with each other and then you get really sad when they get off the interstate and you're still going. 

0  

00:50:20

And you're like, oh, that was my car buddy. But they didn't know it. Okay. But they didn't know it. I do that I'm so I know. So they kind of teamed up as they were going down the trail, like, Hey, we're walking down the same trail. Let's might as well talk to somebody while I'm going. But the night of Louis' death Nealy decided to keep going and run down two horses that had gotten loose. So he was going to go ahead and go forward and find the horses because he didn't want them to get away in the night. So they, his horses it's unknown. It was, I believe so. Okay. Because he said that they had gotten loose. 

0  

00:51:00

So I guess they might have been, his Neeley had looped back around and ended up back at the end. The next morning, after Lewis was found, he buried Louis near the end and wrote a letter to Thomas Jefferson stating that the death was a suicide. There wasn't an autopsy at the time done. But according to the servants, Lewis had one shot through his body at his stomach. And the second was a non-fatal wound to his head that did not hit his brain. And then the razor cut we discussed earlier. So cut and dry, right? Like that's the end of the story? 

0  

00:51:40

Like that's happened. He died. Right. Okay. Glad we're on the same page. So we're going to get into the mystery of the death of Meriwether Lewis and what could have happened. Neely wrote to Jefferson stating the manner of death when he really wasn't sure what the manner of death was. He was speculating based off of the behavior that he saw from Lewis earlier in the day. So did he really die the way that Nealy assumes he did? Let's go ahead and lay out the facts and we'll kind of see for ourselves about a month before Louis' death, he was on a boat bound for Fort Pickering. When he made two attempts to take his own life. 

0  

00:52:22

We aren't sure how he tried to do so. But captain Gilbert Russell was in charge of Fort Pickering at the time of these attempts. And he detained Louis until he got his wits about him. Again, captain Russell said, quote, his condition rendered it necessary that he should be stopped until he recover, which I had done. And also later he added quote, mental derangement, the perfect grammar, right? The other occurrence is that before Lewis left, he started preparing a will and who would get his possessions once he was dead. So there's a lot to believe that maybe he did want to end his own life, but let's take a look at our other side. 

0  

00:53:10

Merryweather Lewis was an expert marksman expert. If we remember one, he hunted when he was really young, he was, he was already doing that. And he was a part of Clark's chosen rifle. Something to think about relating to this wouldn't Lewis, be more precise if he did it himself. 

1  

00:53:36

But if he was kind of a nerved and if he, if he did have the effects of mercury in him, perf perhaps that kind of made him a little off. Yeah. 

0  

00:53:47

We'll see. 

1  

00:53:48

I mean, I'm just, I'm, I'm just putting in the water. 

0  

00:53:51

You would think he would either aim for his heart or be more accurate with the wound to his head. Yes. Why would he shoot himself in the stomach? Even if the wound to his head was a mishap, why would he go to his stomach? This is true. There were a few ways to die with a shot like that, but most commonly would probably just be internal bleeding, which wouldn't be a quick death. This is true. Why would he call to Priscilla to heal him? This is true. Lewis was also found outside. It's odd that he wouldn't do it in the privacy of his room at the end. Yes. How did he end up outside Louis? 

0  

00:54:31

His mother didn't buy the suicide angle either, but it wasn't until the 1840s that people actually started questioning the death. So almost 40 years later in 1848 Lewis's body had to be partially zoomed so that a large monument could be built at his burial site. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. 

1  

00:54:52

Partially 

0  

00:54:54

Partially exempt. What Donut 

1  

00:54:59

Is disturbing. 

0  

00:55:04

So, so it was finally then than an actual examination of his remains was completed. Can I say something real quick? Maybe if 

1  

00:55:16

After I have been buried, there is a need to exam. Let's not be partial about it. 

0  

00:55:25

Okay. I'll tell you, I'll take you out completely. 

1  

00:55:28

Yeah. Let's just be complete either. Exume completely or not at all. Yeah. 

0  

00:55:34

I'm not real sure why it was just partially, but it just said Ashley bothers. 

1  

00:55:39

Okay. Continue 

0  

00:55:41

The medical examiners at the time established the, the shot to Louis' his head was at the back of his head. <em></em> this puts more stock into my opinion that he was murdered. Yeah. He 

1  

00:55:55

Didn't do that himself. 

0  

00:55:56

The theories of what actually happened really just don't stop coming at this point. Yeah. The portion of the Natchez trace Lewis was traveling was known as the devil's backbone. The name came from like the trail was really uneven. So was the terrain, you know, it was kind of wonky back and forth. It was a hard area to go through and bandits were to hide out in this area, waiting for someone to come along. Right. Well, Louis, when he left St. Louis with a differently, with a hefty amount of money to fund his travel to DC, it's unknown how much money he had at the time though. 

0  

00:56:41

However, he was responsible for himself, his horses, the servants, he brought along with him. So it said that he had a pretty, pretty good chunk of change and staying in the ends and that time he had to have money and he wasn't married. 

1  

00:56:52

Correct? Nope. 

0  

00:56:53

Okay. Another theory is that Lewis had been in the middle of a romantic tryst with Priscilla and when her husband returned that night, he found the two and murdered Louis, 

1  

00:57:12

Oh, 

0  

00:57:13

While we're on it, why not a political assassination? He was still governor of the upper Louisiana territory. And remember all those people who were angry about the mining rights and the territory at the time, 

1  

00:57:26

Or didn't want to share the Louisiana territory. 

0  

00:57:30

So the governor of the area before him, our friend general James Wilkinson had a bit of a grudge Lewis had found out that general Wilkinson had wanted to control the lead mines south of St. Louis. And then he wanted to go down to Mexico and take over the silver mines there as well. General Wilkinson was also guilty of selling American secrets to the Spanish empire. And he warned them that Lewis and Clark were coming on an expedition and that the us was going to try and expand their area. 

1  

00:58:06

So he was greedy and did not share well with others. Yes. 

0  

00:58:11

So it's safe to say that general Wilkinson might've been very concerned that Louis was going to expose all of his wrongdoings. Once he reached DC, it was also speculated that general Wilkinson poisoned a commanding general of the army so that he could climb up the ranks. The commanding general died of intense stomach pain. And there's a possibility that had, could have been arsenic poisoning. So let's go back to Priscilla because again, her story kept changing over the years at blame. Her, the story we heard from her account of the night is what she told Neely. 

0  

00:58:54

Originally, you know, the federal officer who was on the trail, then about 30 years later, someone asked her again about that night. And Priscilla said she saw three men who followed Lewis to the end and he had to run them off, threatening them with a gun. She said she saw one of Lewis's servants. John, I think it's pioneer wearing the same clothes that Lewis was wearing when he checked in. Unfortunately this particular servant was pinned as a suspect and slight trigger. He died by suicide several months. He died by suicide seven months after Louis because he was pinned as a suspect. 

0  

00:59:39

Oh, that's very sad. The last theory is that Louis did end his life due to physical pain. He was experiencing possibly from syphilis or malaria or liver failure that possibly he turned the gun on himself in an attempt to do some kind of bloodletting, which we know was a thing at the time to relieve pain. I didn't have use leeches for that. No, you could. A lot of times people would cut themselves or something like that to do shoot, which is why I don't believe. Yeah, not either, but the mystery continues because while we now have all of our players and what could have happened, and now we have all of the, what ifs and what could have happens. 

0  

01:00:30

Keep going with the, with a mystery. Why not? Right. Lewis was buried and home and walled Tennessee. And that land is part of the national park service, which means it's federally owned, right? So there's a way that we could solve this entire mystery. Real simple. We need to examine his body completely complex. This would give more forensic detail on exactly what happened that night in the NPR article that I cited before James stars, he's a retired professor of law and forensic sciences at George Washington university. 

0  

01:01:15

And he actually taught a class. He teaches like a class on Lewis and Clark, like very in depth college course. And he said, quote, it's not a question of the number of years. It's a question of the condition of the remains. I did an exclamation of George Washington's brother and he had been buried in excess of 200 years. And the remains that were located were in perfect condition. So great. Let's go, let's go get him. But we can't back in 1996, stars petitioned for the body to be examed and wanted to examine the remains to see if the manner of death could be changed from suicide. 

0  

01:02:00

It is still listed that way. Gunpowder residue could be tested on the body to see if maybe he was shot at a close range or not. Then there's the fracture pattern in his skull that could tell more about the angle from what she was shot at, but he was denied because it's federal land because the body is on federally owned land is protected. The national park service and the government have to approve an exclamation of the body. Maybe the family would have better luck asking right? This, his family. No, no. Mary weather's. Great. Great, great, great nephew Howell, Louis Bowen told NPR that quote, the family has been United for a very long time to have an exclamation and find the truth. 

0  

01:02:54

And the family actually brought up the subject of excavation again in 2009, but the department of interior rejected it in 2010. Oh, there's a cover up. There is a large monument over the burial site of Louis and the national park service has stated that an exhortation of the burial site would only disrupt the area of my goodness and other Lewis and Clark experts have said that it wouldn't really matter now, anyways. Ah, right. 

0  

01:03:34

So which there, and there is a woman who is she? She said, she basically, she's very into the whole Lewis and Clark. She's an expert in everything. And she's like, you know, what would it matter now? What would it matter now? What would it change? What would it change that you changed? And, you know, in my opinion, the family wants to know they, they should, they should be allowed. So to wrap up our story, before we go into our theories of what could have happened, I'll leave us on kind of a sweet slash sad note. It is very sweet though, a year and a half after Louis' death, his friend, Alexander Wilson, he was an orange biologist or a bird expert. 

0  

01:04:16

He went to meet with Priscilla grinder and wanting to interview her and discuss that night in detail. He was one of the first to investigate into the death and to believe that his death with this, and to believe that his death was a murder, he gave the grinders money to maintain the burial site. So he gave them money and was like, can you please just make sure that it's taken care of, you know, afterwards he visited the burial site and remembered his friend as a brave adventurer who sought out quote the gloomy and Savage wilderness, which I was just entering alone. 

0  

01:04:58

He then sat down beside his best friend Lewis's grave and cried. And that is the mysterious death of Meriwether Lewis, this a sweet friend. I mean, for him to go all that way and to give them money and say, can you please keep up his burial? You know, that's very sweet. And then it was, it was very sad because he says it's the gloomy and Savage wilderness, which I just, which I was just entering alone. And he was saying he was entering it without his friend. It was just sad. But I mean, I think there's so many theories around this and I think that it's absolutely ridiculous that the family isn't allowed to dig him up. 

0  

01:05:41

Like he, why can't the family dig them up? 

1  

01:05:45

Yeah. I 

0  

01:05:46

Mean, what's the reasoning. Yeah. I understand the park services like, well, it'll disrupt the area. I get that it's federally owned land. However, the family didn't decide to bury him on federally owned land. It's not like they were like here, bury him here. Yeah. This will be good. Oh no, we want to exam him. No, you put him there. Yeah. Which On the other hand makes sense because he was Lewis of Lewis and Clark. Like he helped them figure out, you know, all the land and everything. So it does make sense that, you know, he would be buried on a national park 

1  

01:06:24

And it wouldn't be a disruption for long. No, I mean that, that's, what's frustrating. I mean, yeah, I understand it would be a disruption, but it wouldn't be a long disruption 

0  

01:06:39

And you're helping a family figure out. I not understand that this was years ago. I mean, what was it? His fifth great nephew. That's trying to do it now. I understand that that's a lot further apart like, it's not, you know, his, but his mother still, even when she found out about the death of her son, she said too, this was, 

1  

01:07:05

Yeah. And, and there's reason to leave. It's not just the family saying, well, we don't believe it. There, there are signs that point to it was not a suicide, you know, concrete signs that point to this was not a suicide 

0  

01:07:22

One. We'll get in. We're going to get into some triggering kind of suicide talk. So if you're not for that, not mentally. Okay. With that, just skip ahead a little bit. But if you're going to enjoy your life and you were going to do that via a gunshot wound, you're not going to shoot yourself in the back of the head. It's very difficult to do that. And depending on the type of weapon he had with him at the time, I mean, if he only had a rifle, you can't, that's impossible. 

0  

01:08:02

I mean, it's possible, but it's not logical. 

1  

01:08:05

And I mean, if, if he did have a pistol or a, a weapon that were smaller, that would be difficult to do, but I mean, is the wound even compatible with the weapon that he did have 

0  

01:08:22

And we can't find out. Yeah. Yeah. And then, like I said before, you're not going to shoot yourself in the stomach, 

1  

01:08:31

Especially if you are a military man, and you know, the, the spots that are going to be the most effective list. Let's just say that. 

0  

01:08:41

And then why shoot yourself twice and then use a razor on your throat? What, I'm sorry, 

1  

01:08:49

That means a shot in the stomach would be more like there was a struggle to like a fight to get a gun away from somebody and it goes off. And then maybe there was a shot to the back of the head that that would make more sense to me was there was, you know, it happened that way. And you know, then once you are out from, from that, and you realize somebody is still breathing and they're down, then you're able to use a razor to finish your job without being graphic. That's that's the best way I can say that. That, that would be what logically happened to be, as far as I did it, there are many options, you know, it makes sense that a father, I mean, a father, a husband coming home and finding a cheating wife that makes sense abandoned, you know, someone who is, you know, wanting to Rob, Rob someone, you know, he could have been just out for an evening stroll clearing his head or whatever, and someone could just comes upon him and just be being random. 

1  

01:09:56

That totally is plausible a, a political enemy. That makes sense. I mean, you know, all of those that we talked about, any of those do make sense, and it just be, you know, him being happened upon and there being a struggle, those make sense, but it does not make sense that it was a suicide. 

0  

01:10:19

Well, and I also, you know, for the other side where yes, you know, he supposedly did try to end his life about a month before that. And you know that yes. While I understand that could be also the case as well. 

1  

01:10:32

And we don't know how he tried to, we don't know 

0  

01:10:34

How, and it's, you know, then there's the other side where you say, well, he was getting together a will and he was, you know, telling people what possessions have also keep in mind, it's a four week trip just to get to Washington DC. I'm sure. Being the traveler that he was, he knew the risks of going that far. And before he left on the expedition, he might not have had a whole lot. Now he does because he's a governor. So it would make sense for him to say in the event that something happens to me, this what needs, I mean, 

1  

01:11:14

That was the path he had to take on the devil's backbone. 

0  

01:11:18

Smart thing to do is like, Hey, this is, this is risky. Like I may not make it back. And I don't want my affairs to not be in order if that happened. Right. And I'm sure he knew that he had a lot of people who were against him. I'm sure he knew. I believe though, that we can fully conclude that this was not a suicide. 

1  

01:11:44

This was foul play of some sort. I don't think it was that I think we can con we can pretty much say with certainty that it was not by his own hand, that it was found. 

0  

01:11:56

I think there is some stock in the theory that maybe he was messing around with Priscilla because Priscilla changed her story multiple times. 

1  

01:12:06

I think Priscilla had a hand in it some way either she saw something she wasn't supposed to 

0  

01:12:10

As to see, or maybe those three guys came back and they've threatened her. And she was like, upbeat. He's up in that room right there. That's what I'm saying. 

1  

01:12:19

She saw something she wasn't supposed to see, or she did something she wasn't supposed to do. 

0  

01:12:25

Just why would you change your story so many times it doesn't make sense and she's 

1  

01:12:31

Involved somehow, or you're 

0  

01:12:33

Trying to cover up the fact that your husband did it 

1  

01:12:36

Exciting. She saw something she wasn't supposed to see or did something that she wasn't supposed to do. 

0  

01:12:41

I just think there's a lot more to that. And it would make sense that if the husband walks in the house and he sees you doing something with his wife, that you would be shot in the back of the head. I don't know. It's very, it's very odd. I don't know. It's, it's just one of those stories that it's like, what happened, what happened to him? And we can find out that's what's so maddening is just stick them up. It's not gonna take long. Yeah. Park's not going to look great, but you know what? It's fine. It's fine. We'll put it back, put it all back where it was. 

0  

01:13:22

It's fine. It's all right. And however, a lot of people may not know this, but this is not the first time that the government has gotten involved with the burial of a prominent figure. Really? Because if you go into the us Capitol building kind of right in the center of it, and I believe don't like a hundred percent quote me on this. But from what I remember when I visited the Capitol a couple of years ago, went on a tour, is that if the center of the capital, there is a room kind of like underneath the floor. And George Washington was supposed to be buried in there. 

0  

01:14:04

And he was not because the family did not want him buried there. And there was a lot of back and forth because the government was like, no, no, no, he's going to be buried here. We did this. He's going to be buried here. And the family is like, Martha's like, no, this isn't happening. He's going to be buried where we want him to be buried because we're his family good for her. But that room was built for George Washington. And now it is used as a broom closet, which I find funny. But I mean, our tour guide was telling us, he was like, yeah, this is, this room was supposed to be George Washington's resting place. They wanted the first president to be inside the Capitol building. 

0  

01:14:48

And it's just like, what? But then they had to go back and forth for so long to figure out to let Martha, I believe Martha was still alive at this time. I would assume that it was her, but at least George Washington's family to say, no, he's not going to be buried in the Capitol. You're crazy. Yeah. And it's, so this is not the first time that the government has had to be talked down and said, come on now. Really? 

1  

01:15:16

I understand. Yeah, that will be kind of neat. But then to the family, the family's like, w we want to be able to come visit our family member whenever we want 

0  

01:15:30

And not have people gawking or 

1  

01:15:33

Not have to pay admission. I 

0  

01:15:35

Mean, 

1  

01:15:37

I mean, anyway, 

0  

01:15:40

It's just very crazy to think that as a family member, you can't try and you know, this family can't get any traction with the government to say, can we please like, do this is, you know, you know what, look, we just had a pandemic. They could have gone, they could have done it during the pandemic. Nobody would have known. I'm just saying, use the tools in which you were given. All right, nobody was going out in the pandemic. But we had a shelter in place in a lot of areas. A lot of people never even left. 

0  

01:16:20

You know, what, what good time to do it. 

1  

01:16:23

Laws. There were still laws in 

0  

01:16:25

Place. I'm just saying 

1  

01:16:27

I had to, you would have to rent very large machinery to move things. And there were laws in place, barrel laws, federal, federal laws, federal laws, laws just don't encourage people to break laws. 

0  

01:16:41

I'm not encouraging. I'm just saying that the family, if the family is wanting to figure out what happened and the government is worried about disruption of the area, then doing it during a time when people are not going to be there, or, you know what, Hey, close the park for a little bit. Does that work for you? Because it has a new, I mean, okay, 

1  

01:17:05

More people are going to parks now than they were because it's an outdoor place. 

0  

01:17:09

You know what? People might have gone to the park even more after he was exempt, because they wanted to see, I'm just saying, I'm just saying there's a lot of ways that this could have been a benefit. 

1  

01:17:21

Well, 

0  

01:17:22

People need to think. I mean, I just, I hate it for the family that you can't even get something done that you need done. And government is just like me. No we don't. No, no. I know. It's just frustrating. I mean, 

1  

01:17:40

It is 

0  

01:17:42

Because then that makes me wonder. So what if somehow in this time your family member was buried because you remember a lot of people didn't have funerals. You were just kind of buried, buried in the backyard. So what happens if a federal like a park, a national park is formed over land that your family owned? Can you not 

1  

01:18:10

And get them? That's a good question. Because we went to Cades Cove a few years ago. If you've ever been there, there is a church in Cades Cove and there is a graveyard there. That's a good question. 

0  

01:18:23

I don't know you not, can you not which still just like this Star's professor said, you know, professor stars said he had to petition because it was federal land. Yeah. So do you, so you have to petition, do they think it's going to hurt them bond payment? Do they think, I mean, 

1  

01:18:44

I mean, there's not a monument on these grades, 

0  

01:18:47

Right? Exactly. So, so is their issue with this is that they're afraid the monuments going to be, 

1  

01:18:55

I mean, that's a good question, but I don't know. 

0  

01:19:00

It's just unfortunate for a family to not be able to know what happened when they 

1  

01:19:10

Could know if somebody would just let 

0  

01:19:12

Them and they want to know, because you don't want to think even even now, oh wait, you know, people choose to end their life on their own accord. A lot of times you'd give anything to say that that's not what happened because you know, there is sometimes grief that comes with that of had I known and had I this and no one should ever blame themselves for anything like that. That happens. But it is human to feel that way. And to have that happen and to be able to say, you know, we don't want his legacy to be that that was what happened. 

0  

01:19:57

We want the truth. And I mean, there's nothing more than that. It's just like, and it's a mother who lost her child who was telling them he was murdered and it took them 40 years to listen to her. Yeah. 40. And it's still in the, 

1  

01:20:14

In officially in the books as he took his own life. When all the evidence, 

0  

01:20:20

It points to that didn't happen. Yeah. Absolutely. It's unfortunate. Good story. But a sad one. Yep. Lot of, a lot of speculation around it, but lots of history, lots of history makes me enjoy it, which is always good. If you guys have your own theories, tell us what do you think happened? You got a different theory. Let us know. We have a website now where you can find any and all, oh, when you see information, you're looking for all we don't have 

1  

01:20:53

As a telephone number. I think that's the only thing 

0  

01:20:55

We don't have can leave us a voicemail on there. Well, I mean, You can just go to one nation under crime.com. We are one nation under crime on Facebook and Instagram and add an app. Oh, in UC pod on Twitter. If you love our podcast, as much as we do, please follow us on your preferred podcast platform. You're on everything. Everything recommend us to your friends, family, strangers. And if you feel like it, please leave us a five star review really on any platform that you listen to, you can review our show on any of them. And please just leave us a five-star review. Five stars only. 

0  

01:21:35

We do not want for, we strive for perfection here. I prefer five. I'm sensitive. If you have bad opinions, keep them to yourselves. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. I mean, that's just, that's just how things are. So yeah, we do have a Patrion. If you would like to help that way, you can find that on our website. And I think that's it for us this week, guys. We appreciate you all tuning in. Again. We will see you here. Same time, different crime next week. And remember that there isn't always Liberty and justice for all. 

0  

01:22:17

We will see you guys next week, 

2  

01:22:20

PA We become pop. 

0  

01:22:27

You're welcome.