Aug. 23, 2021

1813: Sally Hamilton and Murderer's Creek

1813: Sally Hamilton and Murderer's Creek

We're going to the Catskills! This week the ONUC gals discuss the history of the Catskill Mountains, how Murderer's Creek got its name, and how telling the truth on the stand landed one man in jail for perjury.

Trigger Warning Level: Low

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Sources: Greene County Website, Catskill Archive, Night Before Noon, Remininscences of Catskill, Local Sketches, the memoir of James D. Pinckney, and Legendary Locals of Greene County New York by David and Wanda Dorpfeld

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Transcript

This week on One Nation Under Crime, where 

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00:00:06

You are listening to One Nation Under Crime, A Chronological True Crime Podcast. Each week, we go through our nation's history and discuss one case from each year, starting in 1800. I'm Kayla and I'm 

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00:00:18

Leah. 

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00:00:19

And in the procession of counting goes where to episode 15. Woo, 

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00:00:25

Woo. We can get our permit. 

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00:00:32

And if you knew anything about Leah's life from the past couple of weeks, that's really funny. 

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00:00:37

And my 15 year old nephew did get his permit. This Thursday. He did, he did. He studied his booklet and he got his permit. That's all we have to say about that. 

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00:00:54

Oh goodness. Now I only have what, 10 years till the next time. 

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00:00:59

Goodness. Well actually I have another nephew. That will be 15. 

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00:01:06

That is true. Yeah, no, gosh, gene, I got nine years till I have to deal with that. Not fun with that. So this week we are discussing murderer's Creek. Oh, 

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00:01:25

That's not a fun Creek. 

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00:01:28

No, 

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00:01:29

I'd rather go to Jocelyn's. 

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00:01:31

Ah, I think anybody would rather go to that one instead of this one, to be honest. So let's see our sources for this week. We've actually got a pretty good bit of interesting tidbits around the area that we are discussing this week. So I've got a lot of history as far as that goes with it. So it should be, should be a fun time guys. Sorry. Sources. The Greene County Website. They were actually very helpful. The Catskill Archive, a blog called Night Before Noon. 

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00:02:15

And let's see, this is, this is a fun word and this is the word of it. I had to triple check remanent Remininscences Remininscences yes. 

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00:02:30

That's quite the word. I'm not going to attempt. Good for you. 

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00:02:35

Remininscences says 

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00:02:39

We've not been 

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00:02:40

Drinking. No of Catskill Local Sketches, the memoir of James D Pinckney and Legendary Locals of Greene County, New York by David and Wanda DorpfeldSupport 

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00:02:55

What's the last name to work? Phil I'll let you said failed. I was going to be so excited. 

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00:03:01

You know, that's what they called him in school though. I mean they, David dork Feld that had to be 

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00:03:09

Call them that I'd been their friend too. Let's I mean, let's be honest. 

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00:03:17

No, no, not a bully said you were. I didn't say you are. I wasn't a bully. You could be now honestly, now I added the two of us. It's me. It's 

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00:03:27

You all you, I mean, I may have said something, you know, like that, but I mean, I say that to my friends, 

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00:03:37

Just say it. So for episode 15, we are in 1813, and we got some events that have gone on this year. Not as many as last week, last week we had a hoop, it was 18, 12. So we had a lot going on March 4th, James Madison was sworn in as president of the United States for his second term and Eldridge Garry as his vice president, Eldridge Eldridge, Martin mini Eldridges. No that's that must be a family name. It had like little berm. That's be a family name must be weird. March 29th, the Republican army of the north defeated the Spanish royalists army and present day bay, Harbor county, Texas, and the Spanish forces retreated back to San Antonio at the battle of Rosio Creek in the Mexican war of independence, April 6th, Gutierrez day, Laura drafts a declaration of independence, which establishes the first Republic of Texas, August 30th, a group of the Creek tribe who belonged to the red sticks, killed hundreds of settlers at Fort Mims in Alabama during the Creek war. 

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00:04:55

And it is known as the Fort Mims massacre, November 16th, the British announced a blockade of long island sound leaving only the new England coasts open to shipping December 17th, a trade embargo came into effect, which was aimed at new England merchants who had been supplying the British and Canada. And then let's see an event undated for this year. The phyllo Mathieson society of the university of Pennsylvania was founded. And it is the oldest continuous sleep existing literary society in the United States. 

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00:05:42

And then yes, and then our ongoing events, we have the war of 18, 12, and the Creek war, which were ongoing at this time. So let's get to our births. We have on August 29th, Henry Berg, and he is very influential. Do you know why I do not one he's a Virgo like 

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00:06:09

You? Yep. That's 

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00:06:10

My son. And it makes total sense of who he is being a Virgo. Like you, he is the founder of the American society for the prevention of cruelty to animals or the ASP CA 

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00:06:26

Well, I just 

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00:06:27

Love a critter. He was the founder of that. Yeah. For y'all who don't know Leah's had a hedgehog. Huh? You've had, 

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00:06:34

I've had hamsters, hedgehog, parakeets. 

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00:06:39

And the hedgehog has re like within the last five years you had a hitchhiker. 

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00:06:42

Yeah. His name was sir, sir. Henry prickles worth. Yes. We called him Hank for short. 

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00:06:48

Yeah. So yes. It makes it, it makes sense that you and the founder of SPCA yeah. Would both be 

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00:06:55

Burgers, pet squirrel. <inaudible> 

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00:06:58

I would like a pet, a pet raccoon. You remember pumpkin? Yes. If anybody followed pumpkin the raccoon, I was so sad when pumpkin pumpkin passed away from it. 

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00:07:07

Very sad. But Juniper, Juniper, Fox. They have a raccoon too. 

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00:07:15

I love Juniper and yes, it's the same fig fig. I like fig did 

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00:07:20

You see the head to amputate another part of figs? Little 

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00:07:23

It doesn't. It's so sad. Yes. And then what's the other one? 

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00:07:30

Hmm. 

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00:07:31

Elmore. Yes. 

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00:07:34

Yeah. Sorry. I hit the mic with my finger. I got very excited. I'm sorry. I got very excited. They have a nice little one that says thinking cute. And it's another botanical name, but I can't remember, but he's like a grayish color. 

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00:07:50

Very pretty. They have, they, they do a really good thing. If y'all don't follow Juniper Fox on Instagram, go follow Juniper did there. So 

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00:07:58

They have all kinds of critters. They do 

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00:08:00

Well. And they too, the, the people who run the Juniper Fox page, she does a very good job of educating people on why not to take in foxes. Yes. Because foxes are very territorial and they're very, 

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00:08:19

They have, they have very specific needs, 

1  

00:08:22

Very specific. And they have like out, they the foxes while yes, they do live inside. Sometimes they come in and out, but they have like these massive outdoor areas that they like separately because they can't trust them all together. Right. But yes, they have a lot of critters. She says she has a lot, she re rehabilitates a lot of animals and then their dog moves. 

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00:08:47

So anyway, sorry, little segue there. But we, we, both of us love loves. That's one thing that we 

1  

00:08:52

Bond over. Love the animals. Yeah. We do have, Leah's got quite a few and then I have had yes. And right now you have two, 

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00:09:04

Two. Yeah. I'm down to one dog and one cat 

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00:09:08

For probably the 

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00:09:09

First time we first got married. I went through withdrawals because all I had was a husband and two fish. Like I had no furry critter to welcome me when I came home for nine months. And that was just weird. Like I had had dogs at the mines, we got Selma loo our, the first dog we got, when we got married, we, we bought a house and I told my husband, when we get a house, we're getting a dog. And we bought a house. And in a week we had a dog and his name was Barney. Oh yeah. We had Barney. And he was told, we were told he was a beagle mix. He was a lab mix, a beagle. 

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00:09:49

I still get my, my brother-in-law specially jokes with me about that to this day. He's like, look, Hey Lee, here's a bagel. And I'm like, shut up. Barney was a sweet boy. But then we got Thelma Lou. I mean, of course we had a name or Thelma Lou, we don't know what Thelma Lou was. She was four pounds of rat 

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00:10:10

Parts. <inaudible> I threw Yorkie in there. But you know, that dog was tiny. That dog, she was parked. Right? 

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00:10:19

Part. She was four pounds of diva, princess Chinese spiciness do I'd rather, you say rat than Chinese Crested. She was diva. She was feisty. 

1  

00:10:36

She gave axle. The run-around actual was their master. And she who, she ran that house. 

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00:10:43

They all, they all were submissive to her. And it was hilarious. And when I say four pounds, like the, the most she ever, where she was tiny pounds and that was with her collar and tags on, but she ran the race. So yeah. So we had Barney and then we had gumball <inaudible>, 

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00:11:01

Which I told you this, after the passing of sweet axle, you know, Thelma Lou was on the other side of that rainbow bridge. And she's like, oh God, you know, 

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00:11:11

You found me go sit over there. Guess it every day. 

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00:11:15

I didn't tell them it was time for you yet. I'm not ready. I haven't prepared to discuss it over there. I need a moment. 

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00:11:21

I'm going to be over here. I guess she never, she never really realized or admitted that she was a dog. Oh, of course not. I mean, if any dog ever tried to like sniff her, she'd be like, what, what, what are you doing? 

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00:11:34

But don't why are you, 

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00:11:37

I'm not a dog. Why are you? 

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00:11:39

Claire is not a cat. So yeah. And then I have Fletcher the dog and then we have clear. And then we have Knox, Claire knocks are both Kit-Kats. So that's what I call them all the timer 

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00:11:51

I have. Now I have penny who is a dog and she is, she's a Cocker Wawa. She's a Cocker spaniel. She'll Walla mix. And we have Bernadette or Bernie, Bernie. I'm not after that. Bernie she's Bernadette, we call her Bernie it's after Bernadette from the big bang theory. She's a Calico and she's beautiful 

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00:12:16

Pants, Bernie and penny. 

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00:12:18

Yes. Pennies from big bang. 

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00:12:20

So there you go. Mine don't have any Claire's from Jurassic park or drastic world. Claire's Jurassic world. I didn't miss that of my daughter. She loves Jurassic 

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00:12:33

World. And that's where Claire was from. Yes. 

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00:12:35

And you Knox and then Knox and Fletcher are both Harry Potter characters, Mundo, Angus Fletcher 

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00:12:42

Didn't realize Fletcher. 

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00:12:46

So he was originally named Fletcher when we got him for unknown reasons. And then when I realized it was mungus Fletcher, I've connected. Those we kept. So, yeah. And then NOx, NOx, just NOx, not KMOX, just NOx. Cause he only came around at night. So that's about our babies. Yeah. There's our, there's our babies. So any who now, you know, 

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00:13:14

You're welcome 

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00:13:14

The more, you know, so let's get to deaths. So segue there in 1813, we did have some notable deaths and I hate to sound like super excited in saying that. Cause I didn't mean to sound really excited. Let's get to death, but our deaths for this week, both tie back to previous episodes. So I thought that was really interesting. So April 19th, 1813, Dr. Benjamin Rush died. He is the doctor who was friends with James Durham from episode three. Yeah. He was the one who's the signer of the declaration of independence, a chemist, a physician. 

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00:13:58

And he was the one that brought up mental health issues after slaves were released. So he died in 18, 13. And then on August 23rd, Alexander Wilson, who was a Scottish American or anthologist who you might remember from our Meriwether Lewis episode, he was the friend of Meriwether Lewis that went and paid for the family to keep up his grave. And he was the first one to look into Louis' death as a murder. So he died that year. So let's get into our case for this week, August 20th, 1813, the body of Sally Hamilton is found in murderers Creek in Greene County, New York, Tom, not related. 

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00:14:48

Okay. Hamilton. I know I even looked it up. Like I Googled what Sally Hamilton related to couldn't find anything got. I know. So we're going to go into Greene County and sorry guys, but I kind of went a little crazy going into Greene County because it was super fascinating. So we got a lot of history on Greene County. And if you're from you doing that, I know. Well, there was so much that was interesting about it. And there were so many different little things. And I don't know if revel, I don't know if we will ever get back to Greene County. So I wanted to put it all in here. Okay. 

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00:15:29

And there's some interesting stuff in here. So don't fast forward guys. I promise it's worth it. So Greene County in New York state was created on March 25th, 1800 from portions of Albany and Ulster counties. The county was named after the commander of the Southern campaign of the revolutionary war, Nathaniel green and Henry Knox wanted to hire you. I even put that in, in parentheses, after Nathaniel Greene. I don't think so. I'm not guys. We could honestly do an entire Patrion episode of us just going through Hamilton, just give us a lot. 

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00:16:11

And we'll just, I know. So, and actually in parentheses right after Nathaniel Greene, I have, and Henry Knox wanted to hire you. So the county is located at the Northern end of the Catskills mountains and is bordered by the Hudson river. And it's two hours north of New York city today. The county consists of 14 towns and five villages. The first settlement in the county was on the Hudson river and it was a native American Flint mining site. The Catskills native Americans built several villages in the Catskills area and took advantage of the Flint mined deposits the abundance of fish and game in the area and the natural Harbor that was there. 

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00:17:02

And for those who aren't familiar with Flint, according to Webster's dictionary, Flint is a massive, hard dark courts that produces a spark when struck by steel. So you ever wondered what that was in movies? It's Flint. Flint was also used to make stone tools and today is actually used as the abrasive agent on sandpaper and in mills that grind raw material for ceramic and paint industries, or, you know, some notable people from Greene County, our United States, Congressman John Adams, not the John Adams. 

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00:17:42

You were thinking of I'll looked it up because I was like, what didn't they say, president John and looked it up and not the same one levy hill who is the early inventor of color photography. Interesting. Edwin L Drake who invented the method to drill oil from the ground. Interesting. And Scott Adams, the American cartoonist who created the comic strip Dilbert Dilbert. So some people might remember the story of rip van Winkle is also set in the Catskills. 

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00:18:28

And for those of you who aren't very familiar, pretty sure any of our us listeners had to read it in middle school, but basically rip van Winkle leaves his home. And this is all off of memory. I didn't didn't take notes on it cause I pretty much remember it. He leaves home due to a nagging wife from what I remember with his dog. And he gets drunk and falls asleep in the Catskill mountains and wakes up 20 years later. And when he wakes up time has passed and the revolutionary war has passed. And it's basically like, he's trying to figure out the world after he fell asleep for 20 years. So that's rip van Winkle, something like that. Yes. Well, I briefly read over it as I was looking at it, but yes, that in that is, that is the gist of it. 

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00:19:12

I did mention the Catskill mountains earlier and we will go into a little bit more about them. Now. They are a part of the Appalachian mountains that we discussed back in episode 10, the Catskill mountains area is generally considered the area within the borders of Catskills park, which is a 700,000 acre park. Yeah, just a little, little bit of a trip. You can do it in an afternoon. It's not much, most people might not know, but the famous music festival Woodstock took place in Bethel New York. And it is also a part of the Catskills. 

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00:19:54

A Woodstock was for those who don't know any, not do you not know? I don't know. I understand. But Jimi Hendrix, some of our international listeners may not know what Woodstock is. That's true. So Woodstock was a music and art festival that took place from August 15th to August 18th in 1969, nearly half a million people were in attendance and 32 bands were showcased, including Santana, the grateful dead Creedence, Clearwater revival, the who and Jimi Hendrix, Jimi Hendrix was actually wish. I was looking this up when I was reading it. 

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00:20:35

He was actually one of the last performers. And like over half of the crowd had already left by the time he performed, which is so weird, a few stats regarding the concert, just so people can kind of understand how crazy Woodstock turned out to be two people died. One from using insulin unaware of whether it was for diabetic reasons or not. And the other from someone being run over in a tent by a tractor, oh gosh, that's horrible. There were two births. So I guess two people died. Two people were born. I mean, even now, even now, and this is, I had to double check the staff 742 people overdosed on drugs didn't die, but they overdosed on drugs, 742 mercy. 

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00:21:34

However, it's important to note given the number of the attendees, the stats aren't that bad half a million people. It's not bad when you really think about it. I mean, it's not great, but it's not bad. Could have been a lot worse could have, could have let's see the Catskills also have the nickname of the borscht belt. The reason for this is due to the influx borscht. Yes. The reason for this is due to the influx of Jewish, new Yorkers who started vacationing in the Catskills in the mid 19 hundreds at the height of its popularity, there were around how many resorts do you think would be in the Catskill mountains? 

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00:22:26

Just resorts, just resorts at this time when it was at the height of vacationing 500, yes. The only time we're going to get that, it was going to work out for her one day. There you go. Awesome. Even a blind mouse catches a piece of cheese every now and then, oh, it's a blind squirrel and a nut, I guess it's kind of whatever you want it to be. So yes, there were around 500 resorts and the Catskills area. So the term borscht is actually a Ukrainian soup. 

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00:23:08

It's made of beetroots as the main ingredient brought to the U S by Ashkenazi Jewish immigrants and Slavic immigrants. So since a majority, if not all of the tourists in its heyday were Jewish, this is where Borshbelt came from, is that this term is similar to others in the us, such as the rust belt and the Bible belt, which is what we're in. So it's kind of how different places like that kind of got their name. One of the major pastimes at the resorts were comedians and many of the ones we know got their start on the stages in the borscht belt. 

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00:23:56

Some of these are Woody Allen. I put in parentheses problematic. If you know anything about Woody Allen, he's a, he's a bit, bit of a bit of a subject. We'll say bit of a, I don't want to get sued. 

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00:24:20

There, there are things that have been said about him that had been stories that have been published that are true. 

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00:24:26

That are 

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00:24:27

Yes, that are, are not the most endearing do not make him make us love him a whole lot. 

1  

00:24:35

I mean, you marry your adopted stepdaughter. I have issues anyways. Other ones, Lenny Bruce, George Burns, Rodney Dangerfield, who people might know some of these. I was able to find kind of things that they've been on. So Rodney Dangerfield was in Caddyshack and natural born killers. Casper the ed Sullivan show, Johnny Carson and like a ton of others. His, his I am DB is, is ridiculous for how many things for George Burns. There wasn't a whole lot, like he was on some comedy shows, but there wasn't a whole like big list of things that 

0  

00:25:23

You devil with John Denver. 

1  

00:25:25

That is true. However, I'm just saying, it's trying to pull some things in people like, I'm sorry, 

0  

00:25:33

Judge burns is just class. 

1  

00:25:36

So after that we have Estelle, Getty, Sophia Petrillo from the golden girls, which picture it Sicily, Sicily. I love her buddy Hackett. He voiced scuttle and the little mermaid Mickey Katz, who is actually the grandfather of Jennifer Gray. I know full circle. We'll get to who she is in a moment. So then we have Don Rickles and Joan Rivers. She performed in the borscht belt this time. Isn't that weird? That is, there is an entire section that was devoted to the types of jokes that were popular. 

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00:26:21

And they were bad luck, puns, physical complaints, such as my doctor said that I was in terrible shape. I told him, I want a second opinion. He said, all right, you ugly too much. Like those jokes and, and nagging wives, of course. So speaking of Jennifer Gray earlier, if you, you, everyone should know she is baby 

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00:26:57

And puts 

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00:26:58

Her in a corner and nobody and the Catskills were settings for movies and shows such as dirty dancing. Even though the filming for this was actually done in Virginia and North Carolina, just FYI. And then lastly, people might recognize this era from season two 

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00:27:23

Of the marvelous Mrs. Nasal. 

1  

00:27:26

We love Maizel. Oh my 

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00:27:28

Gosh. She is hilarious. Love, 

1  

00:27:32

Love. 

0  

00:27:33

It's like Gilmore girls with a little, a little, little more spice. It's 

1  

00:27:42

Is I love her. I just love her. That would, if I could go back and live in a time period, that would be mine because 

0  

00:27:50

Dressed people dressed for, 

1  

00:27:55

I don't, I don't even think if that's my reason. I just think that I like, I don't know people. I feel as though I feel as though I would possibly be Maizel 

0  

00:28:09

You would, You, you want that? It's I love it, but I love she. She said we're gonna do the cat scales. I mean, I loved it every time you would say Catskills in the beginning. I thought that every time you go on to the Catskills, but I would not be Susie though. I would not be. So 

1  

00:28:30

You would not be CZ. You couldn't be Susie. I would 

0  

00:28:33

Be her friend. I'll be images. Friends. Yeah. 

1  

00:28:36

That would be me. Yeah, that's true. Or, or her mom, you and her mom have a lot of, not in, I'm not saying in age, chill out. I'm saying in personality and the way y'all are both very like real, proper and real like Pearl clutching at times 

0  

00:28:52

To not call me a Pearl clutcher. 

1  

00:28:54

I said at times, oh my gosh. 

0  

00:28:56

I have, let me clutch my pearls that you calling me, 

1  

00:28:59

Right? Exactly. 

0  

00:29:05

No, the yes. Oh gosh. 

1  

00:29:09

It's such a good show. 

0  

00:29:11

I bet there is language. Don't watch it with kids. Oh, do 

1  

00:29:14

Not watch it with kids Language, but it's such a good, such a good show. Otherwise, if you have not watched it, yeah. 

0  

00:29:22

It's very fast paced. Like the, you have to be listening. You have to paying attention. It's not one that you 

1  

00:29:28

And it's not any, it's not slow. Like the, the timeline is never slow. It's not like there's an episode where it just kind of like drags. There's like every episode, there are reasons it has won awards. Yes. Fantastic. It's wonderful. So that was a lot of information on the Catskills, but they are fascinating in this episode, like I said before, it was a really good time to talk together. One day I would love to go to the Catskills with Mitch, with Mitch. Yes. So this week's case takes place at murderers Creek. I don't want to go there. 

1  

00:30:08

However, it doesn't appear that this was always the name in 1673, the Creek was listed on a deed for sale of the land as murderers kill. However, it was then again, referenced in government documents in 1788 by the same name, but the name might have been a mispronunciation in middle Dutch stick with me here, guys. I had to look up how to say these things and they are, might butcher it in middle Dutch, the word mood, the air means mother and key LA maybe means Creek. 

1  

00:30:53

There is also another Dutch word that's mater, which also means muddy. Ah, so it could have been mother's Creek or muddy Creek because it either way it would have been mood the air QLA or mother Keeley, which either one mother or muddy is. So that's how it could have been translated to murders kill because of the way that it's set with the apostrophe and murders from the first reference, I think it's likely that it was intended to be mothers Creek because there's no possessive at muddy. 

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00:31:34

Anyways, moving on my journalism degree, kicking in. Then when the body of a young woman was found murdered in the Creek, people took the name and now it is referred to as murders Creek. Yikes. Yes. Sally Hamilton was the second, no relation to Alexander. Sally Hamilton was the second daughter of Samuel Hamilton Esquire. I would love for Esquire to be, I mean, I guess it could, I could go to school and be a lawyer. You'd be Esquire anyways, if you didn't know, Esquire's what technically, if you're an attorney or a lawyer, you can put at the end of your name and was said to be, she was said to be an amiable girl at 20 years old, one evening, Sally left her family home and walked the half mile to visit with her sister accounts. 

1  

00:32:35

Very as to who she was going to visit some say it was her sister, others just say it was a neighbor. We're going with the fact that it was her sister in the story. Is this a married sister who lives? Yes. Okay. Cause you know, at 20 Sally was a Spencer, most likely not saying they just put her out to pasture. So it was around eight o'clock when Sally was done visiting and she decided to return home. She was accompanied by a couple of friends. One source said two were quote, elderly ladies. 

1  

00:33:18

I'm sorry. So what 30 got lifted in the gray you're you're at least married. So they're putting me out to pasture at this point. I'm the elderly lady walking seven. I don't have any children. So it's true. I'm a scored into society. Anyway, she departed from her friends when she was about 300 feet away from her home, 300 feet. The streets she lived on was also very, it was said it was very well settled and not at all rural. 

1  

00:33:59

It wasn't a rural area, but she never made it back. Hmm. Sally's disappearance wasn't noticed until the next morning her parents are really it's her dad. From what I understand a lot of things that her parents, I think her mom had already passed at this time because he is the only one that's ever mentioned. So I feel like if she were alive, she would have been mentioned. So her dad thought that she might have stayed with her sister the night before and her sister thought that she had returned back home immediately. The entire town of Athens in Greene County started searching for Sally. It took them three days, but they did eventually find Sally under a bridge in what is now known as murderers Creek. 

1  

00:34:47

Yikes. This location was just 500 feet away from where Sally's friends had last seen her. So only 800 feet away from her home. It took them three days. Yes. We'll find out why. So there's no Trigger Warning for this episode because we are describing injuries. It's not a description of the actual murder, the injuries while not great. They're not right. You know, some things I can't, you know, it's not, I mean, it's bad, no doubt, but somebody died. So the description of Sally's injuries are as follows. 

1  

00:35:30

Her skull was broken. This is actually a quote that was from the medical examiners sheet quote, the school was broken, which doubtless produced death. But a medical examination proved that the murder was, but a sequel to outrage sexual assault could not be determined, but it was also not left out as a possibility in the report of the examination. So while it wasn't mentioned later on, we'll kind of see how that could have been a portion of it, but it never said in the medical examination, whether or not that was a factor, which I found very interesting. 

1  

00:36:22

So that's yeah. That's yeah. Disturbing that it couldn't be determined. So when questioning those who lived closest to the scene of the crime, a woman said she did hear screaming on the night that it was assumed Sally was murdered and she heard it between eight and nine o'clock, which would have been when Sally was going home. Yeah. The woman mentioned the screams to her neighbors, but they brushed her off and Sally's cries went unanswered, which doesn't that sound familiar from our very first case, a jury of inquest was called and they agreed on the verdict of willful murder by the hands of some person or persons unknown we've discussed before how a broken heart and a shocked town we'll do anything to try and find the unidentified subject of the crime. 

1  

00:37:21

Several arrests were made because of this. And one man was only reported as having the last name of Kavanaugh and he was accused and tried for Sally's murder. Even though he was acquitted. It's not said why or how he was acquitted. He was quote drummed out of town, probably as a punishment for his ill looks for, he had the most villainous countenance ever seen the most villainous countenance ever seen. Yes. So two years later in 1815, another man, Patrick Cavanaugh, but spelled differently spelled with a C instead of a K confessed to the murder. 

1  

00:38:03

And he was put on trial, but he was eventually deemed insane. And it was discovered that he had no real knowledge of the crime several years after the confession of Patrick Cavanaugh, a us soldier who was known by the last name as Sickler was indicted. Another soldier, lint, what? Like lint in your pocket. Nice. Not lint like Easter. Yeah. Gotcha. Anyways, he was the one to come forward to authorities with the knowledge that Sickler was the one who actually committed the murder. Hmm. The timeline is a little disjointed and it's pieced together from different sources. 

1  

00:38:48

But from what I understand, this is the series of events that occurred the night of Sally Hamilton murder for soldiers who were at the green Bush barracks, deserted their posts for anyone. Who's wondering because I was a desertion is when a military post is abandoned without permission. And the soldier has no intense on returning. So you don't plan on coming back. You might think that a wall is the same thing, but absence without leave, which is what a wall or unauthorized absence, which is sometimes called UA is only a temporary absence. And it's assumed that the soldier is going to return to their post. 

1  

00:39:29

But a desertion is when they're leaving and they're not coming back. Two of these four men were lint and Sickler. The others were not named according to lint. The men stole a boat and reached the Hudson river on the Western side, lent and Sickler were traveling by foot when they passed a small village or a group of soldiers were in the middle of general military exercises. All of this comes in to play, which is why we're saying this. Soon after it, the two men reached Athens and saw Sally Hamilton, walking alone, Sickler grabbed a Sally and quote abused her empty. 

1  

00:40:13

Or it's not clear if murder was the intended outcome, but regardless when Sally screamed, she was killed, lent, help, Sickler carry her body to the bridge where they pulled up a board and dropped her body into the water. And then put the board back. The men moved on to Catskill New York and spent two nights sleeping in a barn before moving onto a sloop. Headed for NYC. A sloop is like a small sailboat. Kind of the prosecution was able to follow the testimony and corroborated the details described by lint. 

1  

00:40:55

The owners of the boat stolen by the soldiers did confirm it was stolen. The same night the soldiers would have deserted nice. The militia and Coxsackie New York were also performing exercises at the time. Lint and Sickler would have passed by the barn. The men slept in, was owned by William Brando. And his employees said that they saw two men sneak out of the barn early in the morning after sunrise Curtis Graham was standing in the doorway of a shop when he saw two men quickly making their way down main street and captain van loan noted that two rough looking characters, boarded his boat in Catskill the same day. 

1  

00:41:40

Well, that kind of puts it all together. Pretty open and shut, right? Yeah, of course not because what do we say at the end of every episode? There's not all Liberty and justice for all is not always there. The good all us military stepped in and Lintz entire testimony and all of the witnesses were thrown out in an instant. Why officers from the Greenbush barracks testified in court and said that the men were at the barracks at 9:00 PM. The night Sally was murdered and they were accounted for at revelry the next morning, which for those of you who don't know revelry, that's like <inaudible>. 

1  

00:42:37

So that is revelry in the morning. So they were apparently accounted for at revelry. The next morning, Sickler. Exactly. Sickler was almost immediately acquitted of the murder and release. But what about lint? Oh no. He was convicted of perjury. Those of you don't know perjury is when you lie in court, after taking the oath to tell the truth, this is also called lying under oath or violation of an oath. Or if you want to be real fancy mendacity, say it again. 

1  

00:43:17

Mendacity, say it again. <inaudible> was sentenced to two years at a New York state prison. Oh my goodness. For telling the truth, even though Sickler was acquitted years after the trial, the prosecutor, Elijah Williams and judge William w van ness thoroughly believed that both the lint and Sickler were guilty of killing Sally Hamilton. And if the name van sounds familiar, then you've definitely been paying attention in our episodes. In part two of our coverage on the dual Weehawken, I mentioned William Peter van ness, who was Burr's second in the dual William w van ness is not the same person. 

1  

00:44:07

So not the same, can't find where they're related either. Okay. I was curious. I figured, so remember James D pygmy's memoir that I sourced right at the top of the show a little bit ago. Well, the events of the trial were in his memoir and we actually have him to thank for writing it down. However, his memoir was Britain, his memoir was written years later and something, it could be a little off, regardless of whether it's all completely true or not. There are reports that Sickler made and I put insert eye roll here, a deathbed confession. 

1  

00:44:57

Wow. Wow. So Sally Hamilton is buried in the upper section of Mount hope cemetery in Athens, even though her headstone is barely legible due to time and the elements. And she is under a tree, which for those who don't know and who haven't found tick talks of people, cleaning headstones, which is just fascinating. She is buried under a tree. And so any one who's buried under a tree, there's more likely whether you would think that it would be sheltered by the elements, like things falling off the tree and things like that. Anyways, it can cause a lot of issues. 

1  

00:45:39

So even though her headstone is not completely legible, you can still make out the words. And it says sacred to the memory of Sally Hamilton, who was, who was murdered by unknown hands in the evening of the 25th of August. Ady 18, 13, and the 20th year of her age, parental affection erects this monument. And no one was ever officially convicted of Sally Hamilton murder. Oh, fun fact though. I like fun facts. Sally can still be seen today. Oh no. 

1  

00:46:19

I hate these things. You're able to knuckle it depending on what you believe. And according to local lore Sally's ghost can be seen in the area where her body was found on the website. Great. Northern Catskills. They say, check out boat rentals in nearby Catskill and Athens and plan your Han and paddle through murders Creek. And right. I guess if you're in the area and want to rent a boat and see if you can go spots alley for yourself, there's, <inaudible>, there's a plethora of options available for you to get there. 

1  

00:47:03

But yeah, apparently a lot of people go around the date of her death, which would be August 25th. And it has been said that you can see Sally's ghost still haunting the area. <inaudible> that's the no buzzer in case anyone. I don't know. I, I think there, you know, I think some places can hold negative residual energy because people can feel energies in different places that they are. And I mean, you never know. I've seen two ghosts in my lifetime, so I can't say anything, which might be a story for another day. But I have seen both my grandfather and my dad, I saw my dad at his own funeral, which was very weird. 

1  

00:47:48

And my mom saw him too. And then when I was six, I think, I think I was six. I saw my grandfather at my cousin's house at a sleepover. And I was, we were in two rooms. They were across from each other. One was like the guest bedroom. And across the hall was the playroom, my cousin's playroom. And then she had her own bedroom. So half of the girls are sleeping in the guest bedroom. The other half were sleeping in the playroom. And I remember in the middle of the night, hearing someone walk up the stairs cause they had those, this is like a super nice house. And they had those wooden stairs. Like what you saw in the early nineties were like the white front and then the wood on the top, you know, those kinds of stairs. And I could hear someone walking up the stairs and I was like, that's weird. 

1  

00:48:31

It could be like my uncle coming up to check on things. It was really like early in the morning, like two, 3:00 AM of course 3:00 AM anyways, the witching hour. But so I remember hearing like that and I remember the door opening, physically opening and I kind of woke up and I looked in the doorway and it was my grandfather. I was like weird. I thought it was a dream. And I like went back to sleep. I was like, that's really weird. I wasn't the only one who saw it because the other three girls who were in the king size bed with me, jumped ship and left me there to sleep because I woke up the next morning and they're all gone. 

1  

00:49:16

All of them are gone and I go across the hallway and everybody's like in the floor, in the playroom sleeping, I'm like, what the heck is? I'm like, hello. And they were like, you must not have seen it. And I was like, what are you talking about? They're like, you didn't see the guy come open the door like early in the morning, we were like, we thought somebody broke in. And then we went to go tell, you know, like my cousin's parents and they wouldn't believe us. And I was like, oh, I mean pop. Like, yeah, he just stopped by to say, Hey, I guess like, I don't know. I mean, like I knew they were like, oh, okay. 

1  

00:50:00

It's like, so, so yeah. And then at my dad's, which I guess I said, I'll get into it later, but I guess we'll quickly get into it now. So I mentioned in a previous episode, my father did die when I was young. I was 12. When he passed away, that's a whole other story in and of itself. There's not enough therapy or podcast time to go through that entire story. But at his funeral know like you're supposed to, well, I guess like the viewing you're supposed to stand up front and like people come through the line telling you how sorry they are, you know, like the whole thing. So me and my mom were there and you know, it was like, my grandparents were to one side of me and then it was like my aunts and uncles. 

1  

00:50:43

Yeah, my dad's parents. And then it was my aunts and uncles, like beside me and the me and my mom were kind of, kind of in the middle, kind of towards the end. And this guy came up to me and my mom and he was like, I'm so sorry, you know, for everything. Like, I'm so sorry for everything that happened. And we were like, okay, thanks. Like, it's weird way to say that, but okay. And he was just like, I'm just, I just wanted to let you know, I'm sorry for everything that happened. And he said something like, things will be better now or he's better now. 

1  

00:51:23

He said something like in that, in that frame of things. And I was like, oh, thank you so much. You know, like, you know, and he was like, try to not, you know, grieve too much. He wouldn't want you to do that. I was like, okay. Which like, I mean, I'm not a super emotional person anyway. So I was like, okay, sure. This was also when my mother was like, you're not grieving properly. We're taking you to a therapist at the age of 12. And the therapist was like, Nope, that's her. So he left and I looked at my mom and I was like, guy looks just like dad. She was like, I know that's weird. 

1  

00:52:04

And my dad's a very distinct looking person. He's not just like your average. Like I hate to say, he's not like your average white guy. Like, he's just, oh, that's him. My dad had jet black hair. That was always kind of cut and like almost a mullet, but not quite like, kind of just like sweats back. And like, he always like just a mole, like John Stamos and full house, but like a little shorter. And so, and he, Hey guys, look, I don't pretend that he had some like great fashion sense. Sometimes he had a porn stash. Sometimes he didn't and it was black and it didn't help. 

1  

00:52:45

And he was also very, very tan. Thanks genetics. Because I did not get that. He did not get it. And my dad was very tall. So it's like this tall tan man with black hair, like you that's he's very, and he had very striking features. So it was like, oh, that's him. Yeah. And I told my mom, I was like, God, that's really weird. He looks just like him. Mom was like, yeah, he does. And I walked over to my dad's mom, who I called my granny at the time she's passed to now. And I was like, Hey, did you see that guy? She was like, who are you talking about? And I mean, like, I like this happened, walked. And it was a big like area that we were in, walked straight over to her. 

1  

00:53:27

And I said, did you see that? And she was like, what are you talking about? And I said, did you see the guy that looked just like, dad, keep in mind, all these people kept coming down the line. Well, this guy had just walked straight up to me and my mom, nobody else. Yeah. It's just weird. And I was like, he was right. And I turned around and I look and I'm like looking around and the door is like way at the back where it went in. There were a lot of people, it takes a long time to get through and I'm like, he was right. And I'm looking. And I was like, mom, where did he go? And my mom was like, well, he has to be here. And she looks up and she looks around and she's like, I don't see him. 

1  

00:54:09

Whoa. And it was such a weird thing because like, I, like, I visually remember him like full person standing in front of us talking. And I was like, that is so that is weird, weird, like in my mom's <inaudible> and it was just something that was so weird. And like, my dad died very, very, very quickly. Like something happened that morning. He was gone by that afternoon. So, and I mean, like I said, plethora of other things in our lifetime, but you know, it was just very weird because it was very, very quick and it was just like, and then he was there and then we turn around and I'm like, oh, you saw lo mom, 

0  

00:54:56

You, you saw him. 

1  

00:54:58

I'm not losing. Like, I know you're putting me in therapy because I'm not grieving properly. But like, did I imagine 

0  

00:55:05

This guy? 

1  

00:55:06

So again, depending on what you believe, whether you have, or have not seen dose, whether you think you have, or you have not, people think different ways. So depending on what you believe you live in Athens, New York, maybe you can go see if you check out August 25th is coming up. It's actually the day, two days after this episode comes out, it will be August 25th. So if you live in Athens, maybe check her out, see if she's there. Wow. Don't take a boat. That'd be a little weird. Yeah. But maybe she's there. 

0  

00:55:42

I have had no such experiences similar to yours and I'm not going to get chased in any either. I'm just saying I'm not 

1  

00:55:52

It's, it's very, it's weird. So, but anyways, that's our story on Sally Hamilton and how I've seen two ghosts. So there you go. And all the animals we've had, the more, you know, reading rainbow, not the same. I know I told you though, it came on at the same exact time. So that's like the two, like I think of the more, you know, I think of LaVar Burton. I think of reading rainbow. Like those are my and wishbone. Like that's the progression of things that I, that wishbone was such a good show. If somebody could like bring that back. 

0  

00:56:30

I used to show a spun to my kids in class 

1  

00:56:33

Wishbone. If somebody could, what do they call it? Like a, a remake, I guess somebody could like bring that back as a remake. Oh, love it. Anyways. I think that's it 

0  

00:56:47

Nice. 

1  

00:56:47

Passionate about wishbone. Go into the Catskill, 

0  

00:56:52

But at work This week on One Nation Under Crime where, 

1  

00:57:06

So yes, if you're still listening, we have a <inaudible> Section. I can't believe my mother, let me watch dirty dancing. When I was like eight, looking back now I'm like hook. 

0  

00:57:26

He saw the play book mum or made sisters. And I went to see it. They had the Birmingham Broadway series and went to see it. And there was a lady that my friend, one of my friends sat beside. Thank goodness. I sat on the very other end of the trio. She was really, really enamored with Johnny and made noises. When he was on the stage. He was mad. 

1  

00:57:52

I keep those to yourself, man. It was bad. 

0  

00:57:55

She needed 

1  

00:57:55

To get her own room. I'm just saying, when we see Hamilton on the 30th, if that happens 29th, I'm out. Yeah. 29th. So anyways, just a few days after this comes out as well. So we have a website where you can find any and all owing, you see information, your heart could desire and it's at One Nation Under Crime dot com. Real hard to remember. We are One Nation Under Crime on Facebook and Instagram and at O N U C pod on Twitter. If you love our podcast, as much as we do. And we know you do, please follow us and recommend us to your friends, family, coworkers, strangers on the street, anyone 

0  

00:58:38

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1  

00:58:45

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1  

00:59:26

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