March 28, 2022

1842: Alexander Holmes and the Sinking of the William Brown

1842: Alexander Holmes and the Sinking of the William Brown

What if the events of the Titanic happened in the 1840s? Could the events of the Titanic have been prevented? As it turns out the answers is, no. Because they did happen on the William Brown in 1842. The similarities? An iceberg, in April, and a lack of lifeboats. The difference? The captain went down with the Titanic and it's likely due to the trial against Alexander Holmes that we have to thank for the difference.

This week join the ONUC gals as they discuss the sinking of the William Brown, how Alexander Holmes ended up on trial, and how the rules of seamen changed forever.

Trigger Warning Level: Low

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Sources: Encyclopedia, Historical Crime Detective, and Museum Hack

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Transcript

Hi everyone. It's Kayla. And I just wanted to drop in at the beginning of this week's episode and let everyone know that one nation under crime is taking a vacation next week and there will not be a new episode on April 4th. We will be back to our regular schedule on April 11th, but there isn't going to be one next week, as we are taking a much needed vacation. If you miss us that much and you can't go a week without us, you are always welcome to go to Patreon and check out the USBs episodes that we have there, as well as all of our bonus content, you can go to patrion.com/one nation under crime. Now onto this week's case, you were listening to one nation under crime, historical chronological, true crime podcast. 

00:00:47

Each week we go through our nation's history and discuss one case from each year, starting in 1800. I'm Kayla And I'm Leah. We have crept closer to episode, 50 grief, grief, grief, and I greatly hope that our patrons enjoyed getting their last episode a week early. You could also get special surprises like that and such by going to patrion.com and searching for us. So we would greatly appreciate it. You do get a shout out on the show. You also get goodies in the mail and certain things of the light. 

00:01:27

So you also, And our undying Love that too. I mean, you have it, but it's more like cemented, you know, it's kind of like the difference between dating and marriage. You're dating us now. So, you know, but we're okay with it. It's flitter rang, you know, I mean, Hey, just saying you also, as a Patrion subscriber, you'll sometimes get bonus episodes that, that are completely separate from this. It's not like this month. We did everyone getting an episode a week early because it was a two-parter and then, but we do have two episodes on the Patrion right now that even if you subscribe right now, you'll still get those episodes. 

00:02:16

So we do have times where we'll cover, we do what we did back in December USBs on the Patrion. So we do have a couple of episodes there that have that. And so if you want to go there, go, it is fine. You can also talk to other people who listen to the podcast on there. It's kind of like a Facebook group without being a Facebook group, but you can go to that as well. So we're going to dig into it this week. And this, I had to surprisingly dig for this case, which I say surprisingly, and you'll, you'll kind of, you'll see why in a bit. 

00:03:01

And I almost missed it because there is stuff on it, but there is something else that overshadowed, it even Makes the buildup Gaz, Even though the thing that over shattered, it was like years later. So Our sources for this week, we have encyclopedia.com historical crime detective. Okay. Why don't we talked about it before. That should be my name, but it's already taken the psych, my alter ego, I guess. 

00:03:42

No, it's my everyday. When and then museum hack.com actually got some really good information from that website. I've never used it before and I've never seen it before. So I was pre Premium hat Museum hack.com. So it was pretty interesting one. So we are in the year, 1842 this week, and let's get into our events January 1st, the first illustrated weekly magazine was published and NYC don't ask me the name cause I didn't see it January 2nd. 

00:04:22

The first us wires suspension bridge opened for general traffic in Pennsylvania, January 22nd. Charles Dickinson arrived in Boston, Massachusetts with his wife, Caroline, from Liverpool. There you go. February 15th, the first adhesive postage stamp in the U S was made by a private delivery company. Those are very handy. Now you don't even have to lick. No, no I know, but this was the one. This was the first one that you could look and stamp, I mean, Or apply to a wet sponge. 

00:05:06

Yes. Which I prefer February 21st, the first known first known sewing machine patent was filed in Washington, DC by John Greeno. I was going to say singer I, which is very weird because it's the first it, they made it very specific to say the first known. Yeah. Because remember the patent office burned down a few years ago. Yeah. That's true. And they weren't numbered, you know, so, but yeah, because you know, all the old soul machine things that you see, like the old tables and all that, they're all things They're so Cool. 

00:05:49

They're all, you know, they're all singers. Most of the ones that you see commonly are singers. Man. You Want to talk about getting some good, But I mean, you have to Hire your husband. Did it? Is that how he did It? He's just born that Way. I mean, I'm just saying, but yeah. It's yeah, you have to, those are interesting. Had a relative that has one in their house that actually like the sewing machine flips over and it becomes just the desk. And then, so it's really cool. Just one of those interesting things that you never really expect to see, but I have a family, I have a family bunch of family members that like really like antiques. 

00:06:32

So that's where all of that comes from March, just March, No real day. The, The Massachusetts Supreme court made strikes and unions legal in the United States, March 3rd, also in conjunction with Massachusetts, the first child labor law regulating working hours for children was passed in Massachusetts. Well, good. I mean took them long enough. 

00:07:14

Serious problem though. I Mean, I mean, I get it, but it's like Really? Yeah. First Of all their children, I feel like we could gloss over that though, because that's obvious like Yeah. Children should not, but Hey, I'm very thankful that there's a place though. And that it's the law that your children have to go to school now. Yes, that is got it. Yes. March 9th, the first documented discovery of gold in California occurred in Rancho San Francisco, which sparked Just a small, this was not the big gold rush. 

00:07:59

This was Not the first gold rush, either Good or Patrion, but yes, it sparked a small gold rush. And This was actually when people from Mexico because where it is on the, this coast, it's at the bottom tip. So yeah, a lot of people were coming up from Mexico, March 30th, Dr. Crawford long used ether for the first time as an anesthetic in Georgia, June 15th, John C Fremont and kit Carson set off on the first expedition of the Oregon trail. 

00:08:47

Did they get dysentery? Did They? I was just about to say they died of dysentery, probably The best Games ever. Anytime you turn around an Oregon trail, you dive dysentery Or you St. Cross of the river. I mean, or you lose half of something. Anyway, I love playing that These people, August 1st, the Lombard street riot erupted in Philadelphia. Juring people are A riot erupted in Philadelphia during a parade, which was celebrating the end of slavery in the Caribbean. 

00:09:30

It was a race riot that lasted three days. And it was the last in a third teen year period of frequent racial attacks in the city. Yeah. I mean like What city was that? Philadelphia? So for 13 years before this, there were constant attacks. And then like, there's just having a parade for the celebration of the industry or in the Caribbean. That's something to celebrate And Pennsylvania, you were in the north at this time. 

00:10:10

Anyways, I it's, I understand times are different, whatever. Still people can be garbage August 9th. This was interesting. The U S Canada border was defined by the Webster Ashburton treaty. So they actually finally established the line And then they didn't know where it was before. Then Remember they had the pork and beans war. So, you know, I mean, that's what they named it. So August 31st, the us Naval observatory was authorized by Congress, November 9th, the first design patent for type faces and borders was issued to George Bruce. 

00:10:58

Hm, November 22nd, Mount St. Helens in Washington erupted. There you get, I think that happened in 79, same year I was born, I think, Well, this is two years before that A couple, but I think that happened again around the time that I was born, but I think it happened in 1979. I don't remember. I wasn't alive. I wasn't thought of, yes. I just, just something triggered November 26, the university of Notre Dame was founded December 2nd. 

00:11:39

Can I tell you something? I'm not a Notre Dame fan, but I do love their shiny helmets. True. December 7th, the new York's Phil harmonic put on its first concert ever. Hmm. Which I bet was just interesting. And then an unindicted event for this year that also ties back to our Patrion. The secret society scroll and key was established as the second secret society at Yale university. The First We know about the first, so just saying, but the second secret society scroll and key was established, Does their headquarters? 

00:12:23

No, They don't have windows either Though. They like, they, it doesn't look the same at all. Okay. And that's what we have windows Lately, different go to our Patrion. If you want to know more, but onto our births in 1842, January 11th, William James was born. He was an American philosopher, historian and psychologist. He was the first educator to offer a psychology course in the United States. Oh, I thought that was really cool. He was a Capricorn, but yeah, My favorite class, Well, I mean, here I am in this podcast, so I love psychology, but yeah, he was the first William James, the first educator to offer a psychology course in the U S I know, you know, took a while for a lot of people to catch up. 

00:13:19

Thank you. So you I'm 40 and I appreciate you. June 24th. Ambross Gwinnette Bierce was an American short story writer, journalist and poet. His book called the devil's dictionary was named as one of the 100 greatest masterpieces of all time for American literature. Well, okay. Then Never heard of it, but he was cancer Kind of a long title. Well, it's the devil's dictionary, but it was named as one of the 100 greatest masterpieces of all time in American literature. So Has a long along Moniker that Again, Deaths in 1842, March 13th, Samuel ELLs. 

00:14:11

He was the founder of the alpha Delta Phi fraternity and our other death for the year, December 1st, Phillip Spencer. He was the founder of the Chi PSI fraternity. Oh, well, Yeah, it was. I thought that was funny that they, yes, there were other people in this year, guys, they were all politicians for different states and different terms. And I was like, eh, None of them stood out, Not a one. So onto our case for this week, April 19th, 1842, the American passenger ship known as the William Brown sank off the coast of Newfoundland killing 31 passengers on board, you may be asking yourself, how is this a crime we'll get there? 

00:15:12

How many survived? You'll see the survivors are the reason why this is case. Is that okay? This is an interesting case for several reasons, this case will sound familiar to most of you. But for another reason, stick with me, I have talked about this odd dichotomy several times, where there are events that are very similar, that occur in history, and one is virtually forgotten. 

00:15:58

And typically when we go back, like we've done now, what we thought was the first ends up being the second. It's like the Titanic. If you're confused, let me put it this way. The William Brown is the Titanic 70 years before the events on the Titanic occurred. So 70 years after this took place, the Titanic occurred and everyone forgot about the William Brown. Huh? 

00:16:39

Yeah. So we have a lifeboat issue. Oh, that does not even compare to the issue becomes, But Yes, we have major issues. So yes, this is kind of the first in the series that happens of ships that sink and the William Brown was one of the first. So you could say it was the original Titanic, Because I mean, because you know, everybody knows like the Titanic was like 19 10, 12, okay. 19, 19 12, somewhere around there. And that's, if you are a Downton Abbey fan, that is when the whole series starts With the sinking of the Titanic. 

00:17:30

And that's kind of how, you know, what the time period is, is with a sinking at the Titanic and you know, where you are in history. So that's interesting that this has, you know, this has happened before well, And Because that's so well-known Right. And so when I saw that's what I was saying when I was seeing this, and I said that I almost did not see this case. I almost, I couldn't find much on it. And I almost didn't even see it because I'll get into that in a second of why this case was kind of hard to, to find in everything. 

00:18:11

But it's this case actually ties to like a crime, but this happened 77, 0 years before the Titanic. So why didn't we fix all these things And what happens in this case? Just hold on guys. That's the lifeboats are a trend always. So yes. And Titanic. One of the best movies. I'm just going to say it's amazing Heartache. 

00:18:58

I don't think Leo is that good-looking, I don't think he's as good looking as now. I don't think he's as good looking as people say that he is in this movie. I think he played his part well for this time, but my favorite character has always and will always be the unsinkable, Molly brown. Yes. You know that she is, her character is actually a real person, a real person. Yeah. And the Titanic was the second. 

00:19:40

No, no, no, no. The first or the second in the series of three ships that she was on, that went down and she survived all of them. She's just an amazing person, period. There was a Talk about her out her. Yeah. We'll talk about her. She's very, very interesting. But yeah, we will. We will talk about her later on. So the other thing that makes this case interesting is because while the trial was in the United States, the crime itself occurred on the high seas. The trial is one where the court upheld the statute. 

00:20:23

That self-preservation is not always a defense to homicide. You may be asking yourself, how can self-preservation not be a defense for homicide, better question. How was it a defense? I mean, that, that whole, that whole little part you just said was very confusing to me, my friend, I follow you, but it's, it's just, wow. That's How can self preservation even beat? Like, what is this? What is, how did someone get in trouble? 

00:21:04

It's insane. So March 13th, 1842, an American ship named William Brown left Liverpool, England to head back to the United States, heading for Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, the William Brown was an American ship. And it was in essence making her way back home with all of the crew men and everyone as well. In addition to her cargo, which we've discussed before ships are, are women. 

00:21:46

Anyways, yes. Mother nature. We discussed this in one of our episodes as well, the USS upper VA and the Bermuda triangle as well. We talked about that all in one episode. But in addition to your cargo, there were 17 crewman and 65 passengers on board who were mostly Scottish and Irish immigrants. Again, sound familiar because there were a lot of immigrants that were on the Titanic as well, coming over also Scottish and Irish. So on the night of April 19th, the ship was 250 miles from Newfoundland. 

00:22:33

When the William Brown struck an iceberg and began sinking rapidly sound familiar. And it was in April, the Titanic sank to It's like, oh, oh, okay. So the Titanic was like, copy and paste just on the larger scale. Okay. Got it. Got It, got it. There were only two lifeboats onboard, one small one that was known as the jolly boat. The Jolly, jolly To be on the jelly, but please, No, you wouldn't, you wouldn't want to be on the long boat either because that's what the other one is called. 

00:23:13

It's a large one. And it's called the long boat. The captain, the second mate, and seven of the crew, and one passenger took the jolly boat, One passenger And 32 passengers, the first mate and the rest of the crew crowded a board, the long boat. But there wasn't enough space on the Longboat or all of the passengers. Was there more room on the jolly vote? It was a smaller boat and it was already full. I mean, the, I didn't know if it was full or not. The remaining passengers on board pleaded with the captain to be allowed on a lifeboat. 

00:23:56

But the first mate Francis Rhodes told them, quote, poor souls. You're only going down a short time before we do. Oh Yep. Only one hour later, the William Brown sank in 31 passengers died aboard. Yeah. So basically you said, He said, we're probably not going to make it either. So like, you're just dying a little bit before us. So by it gets worse. 

00:24:38

And you thought that that was the worst part. That's not, I mean, that is a terrible part. It gets worse. So how is this a crime? It's just My, our main First mate Francis roads, Alexander William Holmes, and another seaman commanded the large lifeboat with the passengers. The passengers were still dressed in their night clothes and were freezing, which was only made worse by the steady rain that seemed to not let up again. It happened at night when everyone was going to bed and ha like, everybody's just rushing to lifeboats, like Literally copy and paste. 

00:25:22

There you go. You can't stop. And think you just gotta go, go, go, go. So The two lifeboats stayed together through the night, but the captain of the William Brown, George Harris thought they were have a better chance of survival. If the two boats took two different directions, Why, Who knows, but he's the captain. So they have to listen to him. First mate Rhodes told captain Harris that his boat was overcrowded and already starting to leak. And that some people would have to be thrown overboard to keep it from capsizing. I Say we just Chunk chunk all first made out, say, why don't you just try to swim? 

00:26:05

Captain Harris said, quote, I know what you'll have to do. Don't speak of that. Now. Let it be the last resort Throughout the day of the 20th and into the night, the rain and the waves just got worse. The boat was taking on more water despite constantly bailing water out of the boat. And they were in danger of hitting floating ice at any moment Around 10 o'clock that night, first mate roads cried out in despair, quote, this work won't do men. 

00:26:46

You must go to work. Or we shall all perish Alexander homes. And the other crew began throwing people. The first four men that were thrown overboard or named Riley, Duffy, Charles Conlin, and Frank asking the next two to go overboard. How do you choose The next two to go overboard or asking's sisters? But the evidence is conflicting as to whether they were thrown or whether their sacrifice was an act of self devotion to their brother. 

00:27:32

Oh, it was admitted that when homes and he homes is our main character of this story, we will, we'll discuss him. That Holmes sees the brother and the sisters expressed a wish to follow him, asking struggled violently. And the fact that the boat was not deteriorating rapidly in the struggle was used against homes afterward. Keep that in mind. However, they only chose single men and they left the married men on board. 

00:28:14

Many asked to pray before being cast into the sea. But once their prayer was over, they were thrown off. Ah, I cannot imagine Home's tried to put a stop to it by saying, quote, no more shall be thrown over. If any more are lost, we will all be lost together. But regardless of his protest, the quote work that the first mate told everyone to do continued until 14 men and two women were forced off the life boat. 

00:28:54

Oh my goodness. I want to be even more mad that happened at 10 o'clock at night on April 20th. Oh no. The neck they were found in like the next, Our day was the morning of April 21st. And the weather had finally let up, the long boat was spotted by a ship named the Crescent and they were all rescued. And I put, well, the ones that weren't thrown off the night before were rescued Jimmy crickets. That's all I can say. What Cricket. That's all I can say. That's that's all I can say. I just Captain here senseless captain Harris is jolly boat was rescued by a French fishing boat. 

00:29:38

Six days after that the shipwrecked passengers were taken to Philadelphia. And the news of the fate of the William Brown was an instant sensation. When some of the passengers reached land, they immediately filed a complaint. Yes, the us district attorney William M Meredith set out to charge Alexander homes and the first mate Francis Rhodes. But first mate Rhodes had already fled the city and Alexander homes was tried alone. First mate roads was never found The exact charges for homes for the murder. 

00:30:28

The exact charges originally for homes were for the murder. Specifically, a Frank asking a grand jury refused to indict homes on that charge. So it was reduced to manslaughter. Homes was prosecuted under an act that was passed in 1790, which said, quote, any semen who shall commit manslaughter upon the high seas on conviction shall be imprisoned, not exceeding three years and a fine, not exceeding $1,000. The trial began on May 13th. 

00:31:11

Holmes was charged with the unlawful, but not malicious killing a Frank asking. So that is the difference between murder and manslaughter. Manslaughter is, is known to not be quote malicious. So that that's the difference, but we'll obviously get more into it. Holmes actually did admit to throwing ask an overboard, but he maintains that his actions were out of necessity, his captain and second mate vouched for his character, noting that he was quote faithful to his duty and efficient in the performance of it and citing examples of homes, bravery and benevolence. 

00:31:55

While on board during the trial, it was proven that Holmes was the last man to leave the wrecked William Brown. Well, and when he boarded the long boat, he found a widowed mother hysterically crying for her sick daughter who was named Isabel, who had been left on the sinking ship Homes immediately climbed back on to the sinking ship and ran to locate. Isabel. He finally found her quickly tossed her over his shoulder, ran back to the long boat, climbed down the ship side and handed Isabel to her mother. 

00:32:42

That was kind with the exception of his shirt and pants. Holmes had given all of his clothing to the women on the boat and gave words of encouragement to the remainder of the passengers and crew. It was proven that first mate roads lost courage after he commanded the passengers to be thrown overboard. And he turned the command over to homes who immediately changed course. So he turned over everything to homes after he had already, they had already thrown people off in the first mate was like in charge and forced them to do it. Then he's like, Ugh, I've lost courage and gives it to home. So that homes can take over this changing course from when Holmes took over is what put them in the path of the Crescent and in turn led them to being saved because they were not going in the direction that homes turned the boat to the bright important. 

00:33:40

Yes, the prosecution claimed that the circumstances did not justify the action taken that many of the persons thrown overboard, struggled violently, and as the boat did not cap size, there was little chance of that actually occurring basically saying y'all struggled in the boat. Didn't flip over. So clearly the boat was not going to flip over because you were struggling. So that's their basis. That's where they bailing on that. The prosecution stated quote home's defense is that the homicide was necessary to self preser vation. 

00:34:24

First then we ask was the homicide thus necessary? That is to say, was the danger instant overwhelming leaving no choice or means no moment for deliberation for unless the danger were of this sort, the prisoner under any admission had no right without notice or consultation or lot to sacrifice the lives of fellow beings Holmes his defense lawyer countered saying that in a dangerous circumstances, Holmes was placed in, he was not required to wait until the less until the last second to act. 

00:35:04

And self-preservation, in other words, he need not wait until the certainty of danger had been proved past doubt by its results. Yet this is the doctrine of the prosecution. They ask us to wait until the boat had sunk and they were in immediate danger, but everyone would have drown. So after the prosecution and the defense rested judge Baldwin gave the instructions to the jury. Although he recognized the principle that self preservation was a defense to homicide and there were some valid points. 

00:35:49

He stated that there were some important exceptions. One of these exceptions was that when taking on the job of a crew member, the person had accepted the duty, which implied that he or she would put his or her life at risk before risking the lives of the others on board AK. When the captain goes down with the ship, That's true. That circumstance, However, somebody has to know how to Manage the ship. 

00:36:29

We'll see. So judge Baldwin held that semen like homes had accepted such a duty and that therefore self-preservation was not an adequate defense to charge to the charge of manslaughter. And he told the jury quote, extreme peril is not enough to justify a sacrifice such as this was nor would even in the certainty of death, be enough. If death were yet perspective, it must be instant. The sailor is bound to undergo. Whatever hazard is necessary to preserve the boat and passengers, even to the extent of sacrificing his life while it is admitted that sailor and sailor may lawfully struggle with each other, for the plank, which can save. 

00:37:18

But one, we think that if the passenger is on the plank, even the law of necessity justifies not the sailor, take it. So essentially saying, if you have two sailors, walk the plank, they can fight with each other, all they want and you can throw one of them off the boat, all you want. But if you're justifying a sailor versus a passenger, the sailor automatically should be off the boat. Yeah. I mean, I see that Because keep in mind, none of the crew were thrown overboard. 

00:37:59

No one. Yeah. So the trial lasted a week and after 16 hours of deliberation, the jury found Alexander homes guilty as the official report notes, the verdict was given quote with some difficulty and was accompanied by the jury's recommendation for mercy judge Baldwin, sentenced homes to six months in the Eastern Pennsylvania penitentiary and a $20 fine, which is about $540 today. So he got off pretty easy Though. 

00:38:40

He served his full sentence. Holmes was relieved of his fine and ultimately pardoned by president John Tyler, the Alexander homes, trial dictated that semen have a duty to their passengers and that it is superior to even their own wives. His case is the one that set that in stone as a precedent, being on a ship Precedent. Yeah. Homes would eventually return to life at sea and remains the only sailor prosecuted in connection with the events that occurred after the sinking of the William Brown. 

00:39:22

Well, because I couldn't find the first mate Couldn't find anybody else, but there were other crewman on that lifeboat and none of them were prosecuted either. And they said themselves, Holmes had no, he wasn't a first mate. He wasn't a second mate. He was just simply a sailor. Like he was part of the crew, but he held no standing like he held no. Yeah, he was doing what he was told to do by the Senora. And so if he could be tried, then it would stand to reason that the other sailors that were aboard could be tried as well because they stood by, even if they didn't push people over board, they still would have stood by and could have been an accessory to a murder because they saw everything happen To these 30, some odd souls. 

00:40:14

He went down with this ship who owned this ship while were they not prosecuted for not having adequate lifeboats for all of those people who didn't even have a chance. Yeah. And that would have been the captain. Did he own the boat? It still would have been on him to make sure that there were enough lifeboats to sustain the amount of passengers he was allowing on the boat. Well, I'm just saying somebody needs needed to have been taken. You know what I mean? Somebody was at fault for that, for those people that didn't even have a chance to get on a lifeboat to be pushed out of. Well, and then my other question is how do you stay in there? 

00:40:54

And you go, sir, are you married? Are you married or single? Yeah. Second of all, if I ask to pray before I'm thrown off a boat, you better believe that is going to be in the Guinness book of world records. As the longest prayer of all time, before I am thrown off that ship, I would have made it because they realized there's Still That she's still going. And then they're like, oh, there's a boat. I mean, let me tell you if I am given some kind of way to put off my death and that, and they're like, yes, you can do your Catholic prayer because keep in mind, a lot of these are Scottish and Irish. 

00:41:35

You can do your Catholic prayer before. And they're like, Jesus Christ. This is the longest prayer Of All she's doing. And they're like, she's Still Done. Like she's, she's, she's not done. She's still going. We can't throw her off. Like, and they're stuck in like semantics of, we told her that when she was done, we would throw her off. She's not done, but it's been five hours at what point you're having like an existential crisis. And then They're like, they probably like them along, Oh, wait, here's a boat. Probably rushed them along. See, but what's interesting is that had homes not taken over, they would not have changed course. 

00:42:18

So it stands to reason that if that hadn't happened, then everyone on board would have died. Right. Which is why they showed mercy and why he got apart. And I'm sure. Well, and I think too, I think his actions and saving the little girl on the ship, by going back on to save her, they had proof and they had people that did say he, it, it, we were off the coast of Newfoundland in ice and rain. And he took off all of his clothes except his shirt and pants and gave them to the women on the boat. Yeah. And was trying to keep them like he was doing everything he could to keep people alive. 

00:43:00

And while it wasn't, while he did participate in the throwing a people off the Ship, that wasn't, it wasn't, it was a direct from Him. It was a direct order to him. So I don't know where that lies on the scale of being culpable or not. I don't know. I think it is one of those super unfortunate situations that, I mean, cause like he said, like his attorney said, you were saying that no action should be taken unless they are in immediate danger. 

00:43:41

But that immediate danger is you're already out of it, But it's too Late. Yeah. So he was saying the immediate danger part of this it's null and void because we're, you have to do something before it gets to the point of an immediate danger. And so it's like, so what do you do? Yeah. And, but I found it was interesting, but this case is the case that kind of sealed into everything that sailors had a duty to their passengers over their own lives. So that in turn is the captain going down with the ship. That's what this turns into. 

00:44:21

Wow. So, So they think that part, but they didn't fix the whole lifeboat issue. Yeah. I don't, well, we will cover Titanic obviously, but obviously that is around 70 episodes from now because it's 70 years from now. But I mean, this is another, and we talked about it before and it is frustrating that this is another case of, I never knew about this. Yeah. And, and something, it Wasn't on his grain of a scale. Well, no it wasn't, but it's like I was researching it and I was going through it and I'm like, literally the same thing is happening. 

00:45:02

Like minus, well, we don't know if people were thrown off lifeboats, but I mean the same, they hit an iceberg. It was in April. It was at night. There weren't enough lifeboats. Everybody is forced off the boat like in their night clothes and nightgown. So they don't have anything to keep warm. Like the ship goes down and people died on the ship. Like it's, it is, It is, it is crazy. It is the Titanic before the Titanic. So it was just so interesting to a small preview. Yeah. It's like, Hey, oh, here's where you should probably fix things. And they were like, you know what? We're good. 

00:45:42

I think, I think, I think we're good. We're just Going to make the captain stay. And that's my thing too, like you were saying is like, wouldn't someone need to be, but so someone would need to be on a life boat to maybe kind of know the, see enough to know which direction to go. Right. But then on that same hand, how do you decide who goes? Because normal thinking would think, oh, the higher up ranks should be, you know, would be the best ones to go. But then by this, no, they're supposed to stay on the ship because they need passengers on, you know? 

00:46:24

So it's like, so who gets on? Like who, who is going to have? I mean, I know Do they just like float around and what Ends up Happening? Hope that Moses or doesn't come up in a and take them down. And by the way, I saw the trailer for the new Jurassic park. Ugh. It's going to be amazing. But everyone is in it. No like Jeff Goldbloom is in it. Every one is in it. My daughter is going to have a heart attack because Ellie is in it. Like it is, everyone is in this movie. 

00:47:05

So it's, it looks like it's going to be really good, but I'm just saying, and we, at this time, look, we don't know what was the war could be down there. They just found out that crackings are real. Okay. So I'm a crack and could have taken this. They could have just like they're real. We found out they're real. There's proof that they're real. So how do we not know that there's not a Moses sword down in the depths of the ocean that can come up and on top of something, Just ready to see a real mermaid. I'll be so excited. I mean, I don't think they're pretty. I, anyways, that's a whole other story. That's a whole other podcast for another day. Don't do that to me. Don't ruin it for me Anyways. 

00:47:47

I'll try not to, but We're not podcasting on mermaid. So you don't look like the little mermaid. I can tell you that. So Shut your filthy, Man. I'm just saying, you never know crackings are real just saying that you, you don't even know what could come up next. Say it. When I think about that, I have to think of logistically, how could that work? And then I'm like, well, I mean, since 2019 and all the things that have happened, I'm just, Just Surviving. You know, there is apps, you could say something. If you see the people that you might not have that have made like 20, 22 bingo cards. And they like put it down in each like section what they think could happen. 

00:48:30

And then like, they, it shows them like coloring all their bingo cards. I have seen those. I See. Yeah. So like one of them was Nick Jonas and his wife having a baby and everybody's like, that's not gonna happen. That's not going to happen into January. They come out and say that they had a baby via surrogate and like all this other stuff. And it's just, it's like clicking through all these different things. Yeah. I have seen the memes that said, you know, this happened that Alma bingo, At this point, we can not, we can't put anything out there and say, it's not true because at this point we do that. And then it's like, oh, cracking, okay, well, this was this, this was fun guys. 

00:49:15

Which then makes you wonder because everybody was in quarantine and all those things. Do you think that they just got brave enough to come up because there weren't as many ships on the water? Well, I mean, while everybody was in quarantine, we know that wildlife did come down into cities. More like it. I did see, like, I think it was in Montana or somewhere the, there was a street and there were, you know, elk just like walking in the street because People weren't in the streets. So crackin was like Hulu, Literally with their 10, you can find guys, just go to YouTube and Google real, like go on there. 

00:49:58

Don't Google it. But YouTube real crack. And you'll find it real Crackin is what she said. Not real crack. Real cracking. Yeah. I mean, I just want to make sure I don't want you to like do a miss stroke and like, You know, Just saying, I will not find the video of a real crackin on our website, but you can find a lot of things there. So you can go find it@onenationundercrime.com. We are one nation under on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, and at, oh, in UC pod on Twitter. If you love our podcast, as much as we do and even more, please follow us everywhere. 

00:50:38

Recommend us to your friends, family, coworkers, and leave us a five star review, five stars only on apple podcasts. Or I recommend this to people on the street and the doctor's office waiting room, grocery store line To ever, you know, we do have a Patrion, as we said before, just go to patrion.com and search for one nation under crime. We thank you again this week for listening to this episode. Yes. I'll put something in the beginning, but next week we are on a break. So thank you so much for doing that next week. 

00:51:19

We are on a break and we're going to take a week off and then we will be back better than ever. But Tag team back again, We will be on a break and then we will be back it's spring break here where we are. So this is as good a time as any that I'm able to schedule everything out to where that works out. So while we will not see you next week, we will see you here. Same time, different crime in two weeks. And remember there isn't always Liberty and justice for all. 

00:52:00

Nope. Especially if you're a cracking and people thought you were extinct. Yup.