1846: America's First M'Naghten Defense AKA 'Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity'

You are listening to one nation under crime, historical chronological, true crime podcast. Each week, we go through our nation's history and discuss a few cases, A few from each year, starting in 1800. I'm Kayla. And I'm leading This case. Let me tell you something, Tell it, I was telling Leah about this. When she got here, I had a completely different case scheduled for this week. I still don't know what it is. And so I'll say this, the original case was about Elizabeth Valkenburgh and she used, she was a black widow. So she killed her husband's who was famously known for being hung in her rocking chair, because His interest in, She was not the smallest of women. 

00:00:54

So they put her in her rocking chair up on anyways. Yes. So while super interesting, hardly any information on it. So I tried to find a new case and I tried so, and when I say it took a good while for me to find this case, you know, that's the truth. And when you find out what this case is, and it is also another first for the nation, you will be appalled that it is not more known than it is. 

00:01:40

This is that one that you said there's not a Wikipedia page on. I'm Just Amazed at all. Not At all. This was the one that I found a 503 Page Document on, but yet had a hard time finding information on it. And it is one, I have my own theories of why it might not be well-known Coverups. I think some people were ashamed of some things that happened. And I think that it was covered up for several reasons, but I mean, I don't know what the crime is. I'm just assuming It's it doesn't, it is another case that does not have to do so much with the crime as it does the defense. 

00:02:29

So what's the Walking. No, no Sleepwalking. So this is another first for the nation and it is honestly shocking. Oh dear. So let me, let me grab the arms of my chain, Our sources for this week. First we have the journal of the American academy of psychiatry and the law, honestly, super interesting website. And I know that I'm a nerd. I know I'm Weird. That does sound very interesting and Psychiatry and the law, like those are the Things I love it. 

00:03:12

It was so the article I used for this, that was from, that was so good. It is the most widely sourced article for this. Okay. A lawyer friend that I have her undergrad was in psychology, which makes sense. It does. And I won, you know, I love psychology. Like I love it. And then also with having this podcast and with also just knowing what I know about the world, like the law is fascinating to me. I told, I told my boyfriend the other day, I was like, Hey, because my schedule has changed recently. 

00:03:59

I was like, I might go to bar classes like B a R R E, like bar. Yeah. And he was like, oh, okay. Yeah, that sounds really good. Like, if that's something you want to do, go for it. And he goes, bless him. He's handsome. So are you going to be a lawyer? I was like Different kinds of different con No different kind of bar, because I was like, I really like working out. First of all, I don't like that Allergic to it. I mean, yes. But my, my thing was, you don't go that, like, he it's very, but it's not high intensity. 

00:04:46

It Is. You Basically like yoga. It's like Pull, it is a mix between yoga <inaudible> and ballet. And I was like, so it's not super fast, but I would enjoy that. But it's also like, you have to hold one, like, right. It's a good core work. It's a good, like good overall body workout. And I was like, I could do that 50 minutes a week, like 50 minutes out of my week. I could probably reasonably do that. Like I could probably commit to that. Maybe I haven't done it yet. It's intense. I haven't, from what I hear, it's intense. I mean, you always feel good after you do stuff like that. So I was like, I, it might be something To try it. 

00:05:26

I can't do my yoga class anymore. Cause I always felt good After. Yeah. And I wish there was a bar class between my place in yours. I don't think that there there's not one, the closest that there is, is chase lake, but, and that's probably where I'm going to go. But it was, I was just talking to him about it because I was like, Hey, you know, I'm going to Invite him. Gosh. Well, and, and again, like I don't talk too much in personal life, but my work schedule has changed drastically from what it was. And so I was like, I need to do something to be active. 

00:06:06

Like I need to do something. And so it was like, I might get a gym membership. I'm not really sure what I'm going to do, but I might do that just so that I can go and like walk on the track. I'm not going to like, do waste on me. But I was like, just to get out and to go somewhere to do something like it wouldn't be bad. And so I was like, bar classes. That might be good. Yeah. God bless him. So are you going to like be a warrior? Or I was like, oh, well That's the first thing he thought. Oh, and I mean, I get it. And it makes sense because he has a very close family member who is an attorney. So like, I get that and that's fine. 

00:06:49

And Bar classes, I mean, I Mean really, but I was laughing so hard. I just, I wanted you to, one of those clouds, I've seen it like on Tik TOK where they have it's elastic bands. Have you seen this? Where they come down from the ceiling and you like The ally? Like I want to do it, but I really feel like I've hurt myself or someone. I feel like if you did it, and I feel like if you did it a couple of times you would get the hang of it and you would be good with It. I think getting the hang of it is what scares Me. I mean, we would just make sure that no one was around you. 

00:07:30

Right. We'd be like, That's Leah's spot. So all the ones around needs to be in Like put you your own spot back in the corner Where you <inaudible>, but you can't hurt anyone else. So there's that. And I wouldn't be up front so everybody could where you go. That's true. So, but yeah, those classes have always seen and I'm like, Hmm, Scary Interest trusting. But a lot of faith in that rubber band that they go over Rand. I mean, I put a lot of faith in some jeans and some leggings occasionally, and they still stay together. So we talked about this earlier that, so if any, I'm going to go ahead and say this. 

00:08:17

If anyone has ever fallen into the trap, You can't fall into You. Can't fall. I can tell you that of thinking that build leather, Spanx leggings are a good idea for you. They're not, I, I will say this. We don't talk about, we don't talk about weight or body. Everybody is everybody's a beach body. Everything. Like we totally understand that All beautifully and wonderfully made. We understand that I cannot stand when people comment other people on their weight. I, it is a triggering thing for me, because if you want to compliment someone on something, compliment them on the fact that they're smart or they're beautiful, or you're so kind. 

00:09:03

And you're like compliment people on the things that are constant don't compliment like anything, unless it's something, you know, they've been working on, unless it is something you are close enough to them, that you are well aware that, you know, Hey doing X, Y, and Z has made this person happy. So I'm going to compliment them on what they have done. Like I have done to you. Yes. Leah has been working on her health over the past. I'm very, very proud of her. She has done very, very well, but it was something that you did to make yourself happy. And that's something completely different. I saw something today where someone just said to someone else, you look so skinny and it's triggering for me because that's always been, that's always the ideal for people. 

00:09:59

You know, like, oh, you look so skinny. You look so. So in saying that, like I am aware that I, on the scale of sizes, I'm a smaller person as it may seem. And this is what I will say about these devil leggings. I bought a size two sizes too big for me, two sizes, because I bet my original size to begin with could not. You could tell me million dollars, get in those leggings. And I would go, I'm out what it is. 

00:10:40

I am on shark tank. I am mark Cuban. And I am telling you I'm out. I cannot get into these leggings. I bought two sizes too big for me to still had a hard time getting my, my leg, my leg. I got some thighs. I don't have skinny thighs. I get that. I had a hard time getting my leg into these pants. So I am telling you any one, even a half size of a pant size above me will die before they make it into these leggings. 

00:11:25

And they are so tight that I could not breathe. And that is bad when it comes and they are $80. The one I told you one, we talked about this on the Patrion one girl in one pocket audacity in the other that these pants are this small. I understand your Spanx, but there's also not enough Spanx in the world for anyone to fit into this. Like if this thing snapped world war three would commence. That is how much tension would be behind these pants. 

00:12:07

And that is what I am saying. So I understand this is a rabbit hole. I understand this is a tangent. I don't even know at this point how we got onto it because I am so worked up about these frickin Spanx leggings. You think of what she's telling me about. This is Ross from friends when he wears the leather pants. And I told her, I said, that is it. You have to lather yourself in Vaseline to slither your way, another callback to our Patrion. That just came out, go join it. If you haven't. We talk about reptile, reptile, dysfunction. 

00:12:48

That's all I have to say about that. And, and the mummy, I mean, two things that obviously should be, and it's honestly, I Mean, you need to be a Patriot now Brownies. It was a whole ordeal, but I am just saying like, if I can not, and like, I, I fully admit fully admit I am also a person that I get very mentally. I know it's not healthy. And I try to work myself out of it. I am a person that I get very hung up on sizes. I, Even Though sizes are not the same, which Yes. 

00:13:32

And all pants should have pockets. Well, and if a 25 or a 26 or a 27 is a 25, 26, 27 40, I don't care in a size. It should be the same fricking size and another brand. I agree Completely. So Heartedly, I'm just saying that do not fall into this consumerism trap. Yes. Of Spanx leather leggings. They will only deceive you and they will only hurt you in the long run. It is an abusive relationship. You should not return to. And there aren't even real leather, Which I mean fine vegan leather. 

00:14:12

I showed it. I don't want to hurt the animals as well. However, don't do it. We have made it through one source this week. Dear Jesus, our second source for this week. Sorry, this is Where we're at guys. This is what happens when we record a Patrion episode before this, And it's late at night. And if it is, it is later than what we usually record. We used to do this in the beginning. This is just our call. Back to the beginning. It was one year around ago that we were up at Jesus. Hey, Sue's mother of Mary. 

00:14:53

I saw that in my laptop screen and it scared me. I thought someone was in my, my laptop screen on my work. Computer is open and Leah's phone does that flash thing on the back. When it goes off, I thought someone was in my backyard. Oh my gosh, enemy so bad. They probably heard my thoughts on the TSA. And they were like, Hmm, she's out, got off her. It's fine. So our next source, we're going to move on a PDF excerpt from the case of William Freeman, the murder of the van nest family by Blanchard Fosgate MD of Auburn, New York and Blanchard Fosgate we'll come back. 

00:15:42

And he actually does kind of become a central character in this in a way. And then the last source is psychology today. Dot com always a really good source. Our births in 1846, we did talk about this is the second year where we've kind of like shifted in what we do for the years. So there is one person in this year that we're going to focus on right after we discuss these. And given the timing of, I will say, when we are recording this, it is very timely. Okay. Our first birth in 1846, February 2nd, Francis Marion Smith was the founder of the Pacific coast borax company. 

00:16:25

And he was also known as bhorat Smith and the borax king. He was an Aquarius. You know what? Borax is good for two things. Number one, You out of Spanx leather leggings. Cause I don't think that's a thing It's good to get rid of bugs, have bugs in your house. We had fleet issue, Tom, when I was younger and we had carpet Worst thing for fleas. And also it is one of the ingredients to make slum. You're welcome. I thought that was going in a totally different direction. Anyhow, February 26, William Buffalo, bill Cody was born. 

00:17:11

He was a frontiersman and a Pisces. There You go. Our deaths in 1846. First, January 5th, we have Alfred Thomas agate. He was an artist painter and miniaturist so he created miniatures of little things. There is a Instagram that does minute, and this is our podcast. So they do miniature crime scenes. They make like little bitty, like little bitty, like <inaudible> crime scenes of like little it's really kind of cool. But I think at the hunchback of Notre dome, Yes. 

00:17:51

And then August 11th, this is just a cool name, John Caspar, which I like to think of Casper wild. He was a landscape painter and lift biographer. He died, but then we're going to focus in on our one person for this year, his name you might know, but you don't know him. Okay. His name Merryweather Lewis Clark junior, junior, junior. He was an Aquarius and he was born on January 27th, 1846. 

00:18:31

He was the grandson of Explorer and Missouri governor general, William Clark of the Lewis and Clark expedition, his father, which also found it super endearing that William Clark named his son Merryweather Lewis, Clark, just knowing what we know about Mary weather's case. And if you've not listened to that episode truly is a great episode that people do not know about Mary weather's murder. And it is such an interesting case because of what we don't know. Even though we know a lot about it, it's very, it's just very interesting, but his father was major Merryweather Lewis, Clark, who was the aide to camp, which we've talked about is like a secretary. 

00:19:21

And in, in law to general Steven Watts, Kearny of the Mexican-American war fame, his mother Abigail prey, ther Churchill was from one of the first families of Kentucky, the Churchill's and moved to Louisville in 1787 M bought 300 acres of land in rural south in a rural area, south of the city when his mother died, Looney L U T I E was Clark's nickname, went to live with his aunt and her sons, John and Henry Churchill then inherited most of the original Churchill property. 

00:20:02

And they donated the land on which the, on which Churchill downs was built. Living with the Churchills, Ludy developed a taste for expensive things, including horse racing. He made two trips to Europe and married twice. However, both of his wives ended up dying young. He came home from abroad in 1873 with an idea to build a race track and Louisville. He planned to implement bookmaking by introducing the French system of para mutual betting machines. Pretty sure that's how you say that donut. The Churchill brothers were the entrepreneurs providing the financial backing and Ludy was the acting president and on-site manager of what came to be known as the Kentucky Derby. 

00:20:54

When you said Churchill downs, I was like, I saw that. And I was like, how Way? No way. So for those of you don't we do record these little advanced, but Kentucky Derby was just last weekend, like just happened. And I was researching this and I was like This year. Yeah. I was like, no. And who would have thought that Mary, whether Lewis Clark Jr. Created the Kentucky Derby, it was just, it's one of those things of like, this is why I love doing this because it's so interesting to See that are connected, that you would never have thought. 

00:21:34

So of course, when I found this guy, I was like, this is the person we're focusing on for this Week. So as really cool Ludy was said to have an impulsive and touchy personality, it is reported that he threatened a prominent breeder by the name of TG Moore, with a gun, ordering him off the premises. After having knocked him down into dispute over boarding fees, more actually got a gun and shot Ludy through a door and hit him in the Chest, More turned himself into the police. But strangely enough, no charges were brought against him. 

00:22:14

Ludy lived in later rescinded his band from the racetrack, but that wasn't the only person he threatened with a gun over perceived insults the church. Our brothers did not appreciate the negative publicity and they left the track to their families. Ludy received some other land, but by the time John Churchill died in 1897, Ludy was demoted to a stable keeper at the track he had originally started. Oh, However, his contribution to American racing cannot be overstated. In addition to building Churchill downs and originating the fricking Kentucky Derby. 

00:22:56

Wow. Just part of the triple crown. He, He wrote many racing rules that are actually still enforced today. Wow. He worked for a uniform system of weights and pioneered the steaks system, creating the great American stallion stakes on which the present day breeders' cup is modeled. He also spoke out against allowing officials and reporters to bet on the races that they were reporting and officiating Good for him. Unfortunately, Merryweather Clark, Mary, whether Lewis Clark Jr. It's such a long like anyways, loony lost heavily in the stock market crash of 1893. 

00:23:41

He began traveling from city to city working as a stable keeper, but he was terrified of living a life of poverty and sorry, guys, a little bit of a trigger warning. He completed suicide on April 22nd, 1899. He is buried in cave hill cemetery next to his uncle, John Churchill. I just thought one, I saw the name and I was like, obviously we have to talk about him. Then I found out what he had done. And I was like, No, Wait. That's very cool. So cool Mary, whether Lewis Clark Jr. Which now honestly makes sense of why when I was trying to look up all of the stuff on Merryweather and I kept putting Merryweather Clark instead of Merryweather Lewis makes total sense of why stuff was actually coming up because there wasn't Mary with her Clark and a junior, so made a lot of sense. 

00:24:42

But so we have Merryweather Lewis, Clark, Jr. To thank for the Kentucky Derby and by extension mint juleps. There you go. And did you see that the winner of the Kentucky Derby this year? It was like, it was 80 to one. Yeah. That, that it would win that they would win. And I read a story on it actually. And the owners of the horse. I can't remember the horse's name. Oh, okay. Oh, something money or something. I can't remember. But the owner and the jockey, like neither one of them have ever been in like a big stakes race and they just happened to get the spot because somebody dropped out and the owner of the horse got this, this three-year-old. 

00:25:30

So this is like the last chance for them to, for the horse to be in the race anyway, which Strike Rich strike That I was looking it up as you were, It was the last chance for him to be in the race, but the owner got the horse, the previous owner, like he hadn't performed well. And so there's like a certain race that they can be in. And you know, you just kind of, if somebody wants it, they can offer, get it. And the owner that bought him, wasn't able to get the original one that he was there to buy. And so he just bought rich Stripe. I mean, you know, just kind of One of the payoff And then ended up getting a last minute shot in the, you know, spot in the Kentucky Derby and then won the whole thing. 

00:26:18

Crazy. Love it. That's one of those like underdog stories or under horror stories, I guess at this point that people don't hear about, but it was just, The announcer was trying to look up this word. His name did not even know the horses name as it was coming up in passing wasn't even on their radar. This horse is like the new Seabiscuit just To my desk. I did see an article the other day that I did love. And it was a horse farm for the retired Kentucky Derby horses And retired jockeys and like people that were in a local nursing home, like not a nursing home, but just like assisted living. 

00:27:08

Like not, you know, A retirement community. Yes. That's about it. Yes. That's the word I was looking for. I got You girl. They took care of the Kentucky Derby, Retired Horses. And it was just the cutest story because it was like, they're all retired. Like it was just so cute. It was such a, it's such a precious story. It gets the meaning, you know, it gives them, you know, something to do. It was just, it was such a cute story, but yes. So I just, With that kind of story, I know, and I Am very cool that the Kentucky Derby, I know who it was started. Like it was just insane. 

00:27:49

Like I, you always wonder how things got started, but never really look into, and you're like, oh, that's cool. I wonder what happened, like how that happened. And it just, some of the stories just ended up being so interesting, which is why I'm really glad. I will say the next person that we take a deep dive into. We are getting into, you know, me one of my favorite time periods that starts to crop up around this time. And it is a movement that swept the Move. 

00:28:35

Yes, it is not a moment. It is a movement. And we're going to cover one person that I saw. We'll put it this way. I saw what he created and over all the people, I was like, I don't care what anybody else did this year. We're covering him. No, she's creeping me out. You will be creeped out. So There's another, you Know, Me made out of human skin. You Know, it's not that bad. It's not that bad. I'll say that. I will say it's something you would not mess with, but that is all I will say about That has to do with bones. 

00:29:22

No, but we will get to it. It actually, no, it won't be our one year. Cause our next episode is our one year, but it'll be right after that. So March 22nd, 1846, this is going to tell you exactly what we were covering this week. All right. William Freeman murdered John van nest, his wife, Sarah van Nast and their son two year old George, as well as Sarah's mother Phoebe. Why cough in Auburn, New York, this case is known as the first in the United States to use the monotoned defense in a trial or the insanity defense. 

00:30:11

How is there not a Wikipedia page on this Is very surprised How the first time, like an and we'll talk about it later, but this is the first official time in court records that the insanity defense was used and we'll go into McNaughton and all this other stuff. So we're going to take a deep dive into exactly what the monotoned defense is and monotonous spelled several different ways. It's spelled McNaughton, it's spelled, but most commonly, if you look it up, it's M a posture fee in a G H T E N. So it's monotonous. It's very like that way. 

00:30:53

That's how it's actually spelled. But a lot of people will say McNaughton or something similar to this, but we'll talk about its origins and the rules for applying it in a trial as well. Do you know what I immediately think of the methods phenomenon? It's true. I did think of that as I was researching this. Thank you. But first we're going to take a short stop and Auburn New York, Auburn is located in Cuyahoga county, New York at the north end of old Lasko lake. One of the finger lakes in central New York. 

00:31:33

It was founded in 1793 during the post-revolutionary period of settlement of Western New York. The founder of the city was John L Hardenbergh, who was a veteran of the Sullivan Clinton campaign against the Iroquois during the American revolution. It was originally known as Herbon pardon Berg's corners, not hard. And Berg's corner corners in the town of <inaudible>. The settlement was eventually renamed Auburn in 1805, much easier name to say That that rolls off the tongue much, Much easier. 

00:32:14

And it became the county seat. It was incorporated as a village in 18, 15 and chartered officially as a city in 1848, which is two years after this trial positioning itself. Only a few miles away from the Erie canal, which opened in 1825. It allowed local factories to inexpensively ship goods, either north or south because of its connections in 18 one, the Southern central railroad completed a primary line to carry coal from Athens, Pennsylvania through Auburn, to wharves on lake Ontario from 18, 18 to 1939, just a few years, Auburn was home to Auburn, theological seminary, which was one of the preeminent theological seminaries in the United States in 1939 facing financial difficulties as a result of the great depression, the seminary moved the campus to union theological seminary in New York city. 

00:33:22

The only building from the Auburn theological seminary that stands today is Willard Memorial chapel and the adjacent Welsh Memorial hall on Nelson street. This is what you will find interesting. The buildings contain the only surviving ecclesiastical installation of stained glass and an interior decoration by Louis comfort, Tiffany. Oh, it is the only complete an altered Tiffany chapel interior known to exist. 

00:34:03

Wow. And they were both declared a national historic landmark in 2005. That is amazing. I wonder what it, I wonder what it's worth. I don't know, but you can look at photos. It is. Oh, I bet gorgeous. Like it used for now. I wonder. I mean, I believe from what I recall, one they're both museums. You can go through them and you can see kind of the insides of them. But I also believe there's kind of used similarly along the same line. They're both still chapels. So I think they're Yeah, I would hope because that would vase or Gorgeous, like it is beautiful. 

00:34:46

Yes. It, it, it, it, it's crazy. In 1816 taking a complete 180 Auburn prison now known as the Auburn correctional facility was founded as a model for the contemporary ideas for treating prisoners, which was then known as the Auburn system. This doesn't sound good. No visitors were charged a fee for viewing the facility hand it's inmates on August 6th, 1890. The first execution by the electric chair was carried out at Auburn prison. 

00:35:27

Okay. Just at all from prison, not, I think this was one of the first places in 1890, that it was okay. Ever Implemented. Okay. The Auburn system was an idea that prisoners would work during the day in groups and then be kept in solitary confinement at night with enforced silence at all times, the silent system evolves during the 1820s as an alternative to a modification of the Pennsylvania system of solitary confinement, which it gradually replaced in the United States among notable elements of the Auburn system were striped uniforms. So that's where the striped uniforms for prisons come from silence and lock step, which is marching in a very close single file line in such a way that the leg of each person in the line moves in the same way at the same time as the person in front of him so that their legs stay very close. 

00:36:30

So it's like almost like your legs inner lock, right? Like, like a caterpillar, caterpillar, like a syncope, like, like that. So that's how they were forced to walk through the building at all times. So now is, is, are they supposed to be completely silent while they're working as well? He just said in forced silence at all times, which not okay. I have my own feelings. I mean, if the silence is in force, like when it's lights out, It says at all times another characteristic of the Auburn system or quote, I put this in quotes, specifically, quote, community activities. 

00:37:18

It's not the community activities that you would think during specific times during the day, the prisoners had tasks to perform such as making nails, barrels, buttons, furniture, and other common household items. There's apparently a community activity, not what I did and Not what I consider. John D Cray, who served as a deputy warden at Auburn prison, demanded the prisoners, be completely silent to take away the prisoner's quote sense of self. He believed that once this was taken away, the convicts obey the warden's wishes more easily. During the 1840s, the prison began to produce silk using silkworms and trees. 

00:38:05

The Auburn correctional facility was the first prison to profit from prison labor. And I just put not great. I have, I will leave it at this. And I will just say this. I have a very large problem with, for profit prisons. Self-sustaining that's one thing, Correct? If you were self-sustaining that is one thing I have a problem with for profit, because I believe if you are for profit, then your desire. I don't know, let people out on probation for minor drug charges is probably going to be low because you want to because you need money. 

00:38:51

Yeah. And that money. And so that's just me. I also believe, you know, you should probably rehabilitate people instead of putting them in jail for drugs. But anyways, pushes me. Let's just, let's let's educate. Let's help. That's fine. Anyways, addiction is a disease. Is all I'm going to leave it up. Yes. So this was a, it's just it's insane. The prison was known to have many Sightseers in the 18 hundreds and the main goal of the system wasn't to instill good work habits and ideas of industry that were surprised to be rehabilitative to the prisoners. 

00:39:39

Although the, the Auburn system have been abandoned. The present continues today to serve as a maximum security facility and is one of the most secure prisons in the continental United States since 1978. On the second Sunday of every August, Auburn has hosted the great race, which is a three or four person relay race involving running, cycling, or canoeing and kayaking. The race begins and ends in the area of a Wasco lake on the Southern outskirts of Auburn there between 2020 500 people participating in an average year, it is one of the largest relay races in the United States. 

00:40:28

There are several notable figures to mention from Auburn. The first of course, being Harriet Tubman and the second being William H Seward, who we're going to discuss <inaudible> today, before we get into discussing him, I will say that in the 1850s, the Seward family opened their home as a safe house to fugitive slaves on the underground railroad. This is after this case, by the way, in 1859, Seward sold a plot of land to Harriet Tubman who used it to create a safe Haven for her family and friends and other black Americans seeking a better life in the north basketball. 

00:41:15

It's incredible when you know what happens in this case, and you also know that that's what happened after it. It, it, it is very cool and it's very sad that this is not more known and it should be. And I'm very glad we're covering it because of that Sewer. His house is now a local museum and both it and Harriet Tubman's house are on the national register of historic places. Some other notable figures from Auburn include Willard Bundy who invented the first time clock. Birdsell Holly, the inventor of the fire hydrant dogs everywhere, thanking every John Welsh, the ever beloved host of America's most wanted. 

00:42:09

And this will be Elia's favorite person, Annie Edson Taylor, the first person known to survive a trip over Niagara falls in a barrel. That's awesome. I knew you'd like that. William Freeman was 23 at the time of his trial in 1846. His father was a slave who had been freed before William was born. So shouldn't have to say this, but just for those who could be cleaning their home or halfway listening, William is black. 

00:42:49

So just to make that abundantly clear as we get into this, to just keep that in mind, cause it will heavily play into this case. Freeman was said to become socially withdrawn around the age of 13. And it is also important to note that two of his sisters were described as mentally impaired. He was described to be about five, seven broad chested and muscular in 1841, Freeman was 16, a horse disappeared, and immediately he was accused. Wonder why Freeman insisted that he was innocent and he was released. However, when police arrested another man for the crime, the man convinced the magistrate, that Freeman was the one who had actually taken the horse. 

00:43:38

Freeman was rearrested, but he escaped from the jail for two weeks in July of 1841. During this time, the other man who was arrested, made a deal with the authorities that he would actually help convict Freeman of the crime that's despicable because of this Freeman was convicted at trial and sentenced to the state prison at Auburn for five years for grand larceny. While the other man received an award for perjury, which we've discussed, perjury is lying on the stand and he received the award of a full discharge of any criminal charges. 

00:44:19

Now I want to go ahead and put in here that there are a lot of pieces to this case. And a few quotes that I will say on the tame side are extremely racist. Hmm. I have cleaned them up. And there are certain words that while not completely in the realm of being a Borat, it sits on the line a little bit too close for me that I will not use. 

00:45:12

And some of the things that are said, and I'll point them out. Don't worry are so despicable and bigoted that my I've told you this before. I think there are some things that happen or some things that just occur in this world that my mind genuinely cannot comprehend. Like my mind. I think it is a defense mechanism of my brain that just says, Nope, we reject that. Like we're not even, we can't even process that to emote on this topic. 

00:45:54

And I think this is kind of one of those things, because to me like this is some of these things are so agregious that it doesn't make sense to me to say some of these things out loud. So I'm saying that while Freeman was in prison, he did not adapt well to his new surroundings. And he continued to insist that he was innocent and he had nothing at all to do with the crime in 1841. He got into an altercation with someone who was only listed in the system as a tradesman, Friedman suffered a major head injury that was said to take away a good majority of his hearing. 

00:46:39

The tradesman attempted to defend the severity of the injuries by stating. And this is the first quote in the line of quotes that I are not okay. And physically we'll have a hard time saying and did have a hard time researching, just say that black man's hide. This is a direct quote direct word at black man's hide is thicker than a white man's. And I meant to make him feel the punishment I put people period are period garbage period. 

00:47:21

And the just making sure that's abundantly clear. Wow. Over time, Freeman's hearing continued to get worse and became obsessed with proving his innocence and continually disgusted at the treatment he was receiving. If they, I know he finally finished his sentence in September of 1845, he was collected from the prison by his brother-in-law, who later described him as deranged. When he picked him up. His brother-in-law said that he became obsessed with payback for his imprisonment. Dr. Blanchard fast gate, who I mentioned at the Berry top is one of our sources who I said would come back and he'll come back at the end as well. 

00:48:03

He was the doctor for the prison and he actually examined William Freeman before he was released from prison. And Dr. Fosgate described his condition as quote, he left prison conscious of the injustice. He had suffered and had invited an idea that he was entitled to pay for his time. The cinnamon can not be eradicated from his mind. And on several occasions, he applied for a warrant against those who he supposed liable renumeration with him was the one idea on March 12th, 1846, Freeman made his way towards a Wasco lake armed with a common butcher's knife and a cane with a blade attached to the lower end. 

00:48:51

Honestly, a little bit of a callback to our Patrion episodes. I just thought about that. Yeah. He noticed a few houses nearby and after surveying them carefully, he selected the residents of the van nests. It was there that he murdered John van ness, his wife, Sarah, and their two-year-old son, George. He also proceeded to attack Sarah's mother Phoebe Phoebe was able to injure Freeman's hand during the attack, but while she had originally survived, she did later die from her injuries. Freeman made sure to enter every room in the house and to make sure that no one else remained. He then went out to the stable, took a horse and ran away from the scene. 

00:49:35

All of this took place in a matter of five minutes to kill those three people, injure the mother and leave and check the entire house to make sure no one else was there. Goodness, I, so just two days after the murders, he was apprehended and identified by eyewitnesses. He was kept in the county jail where he awaited trial. The town was outraged by the senseless murders of the family. It is also important to note that the argument was likely an outrage that a prominent white family was murdered by a black man who was the son of a freed slave. 

00:50:31

I am not someone who subscribes to the white savior complex of, you know, like we, you know, we're here to whatever people may, may believe. I just truly believe that you have to point these things out because it's important to point them out because I'm sure that that was I'm sure there were a lot of words thrown around that led to the outrage of this. And we will continue to see that the trial was officially set for June 1st, 1846. This is where William H Seward steps into the case. 

00:51:13

And we talked about him before he sold land to Harriet Tubman. And also later after this case opened his home to the underground railroad, honestly just didn't know him as a personal person. Just seems like a gym. Just me. Yes, but Seward practice law in Auburn before and after his two terms as governor and before becoming secretary of state for president Abraham Lincoln ever heard of him, I think we do like this Draws, it draws a draws, a conclusion, right? 

00:51:54

He was known to lecture against slavery and he strongly supported Henry Clay for president Henry Clay did end up losing to James Polk. And at that time Seward returned to private practice and Auburn. He was a strong supporter of the idea of specialized facilities for persons with mental illnesses. And he accepted cases pro bono to help these types of defenses. Again, think we might like him like him Even more. Yeah. There are some things that kind of allude to the fact that he could be problematic. I'm not going into those things at this moment. I'm saying based off of what we know from this case seems like a pretty chill dude, but I am jumping people's idea, right? 

00:52:40

Is ideas of places for people with, you know, mental deficiency. I'm just saying by Nothing out from what we know, I think if he took some brownies to a card game, things would be fine. That's all I'm saying. Go listen to the Patrion episode. I mean, who knows? One of these cases that he took pro bono was William Freeman's. Seward appeared in court and immediately entered an insanity plea and requested a trial by jury. It was later were counted. The events that occurred once steward stepped in to the court quote, the large courtroom was packed with an immense crowd of angry people who could hardly their indignation as William Freeman stood in the bar before them, the officers of the court or pallet with fear less should be taken from them by force and hand in the streets. 

00:53:38

Do you plead guilty or not guilty? Asked the district attorney Seward arose calmly dignified and impressive. If the court pleases, I enter the plea of not guilty and that plea is founded on the insanity of the prisoner. An angry murmur ran through the courtroom mingled with threats of personal violence towards Mr. Seward, the district attorney whose name was lumen Sherwood immediately opposed the insanity defense. Interesting. The judge ruled that because an insane person cannot be tried. 

00:54:21

William Freeman's condition had to be evaluated before he could proceed with the trial. But the judge also, wasn't really sure how this consultation should be done. Your six attorney Sherwood said that sanity could be determined simply by an evaluation with or without the help of a doctor or even an evaluation from simply the jury Sherwood said based on his interactions with Freeman, he thought the defendant was not at all insane Seward, however disagreed. And the court suspended the trial while William Freeman remained in jail. 

00:55:02

That on June 24th, 1846, the court agreed to determine his mental state by jury verdict, jury selection followed, even though Seward strongly objected to the entire proceeding, the trial itself would be bifurcated. Do you know what that means? I do not good. We haven't discussed what bifurcation means previously. So this is a good time to just do a brief summation of what bifurcated means. When you hear it, you might under, you. You'll probably have heard what this is before, but not known what it was called. 

00:55:45

Simply. This means that the trials conducted in two stages. The common division is to determine liability or guilt in the first stage and then damages or penalties in the second stage. So first the determination has to be made as a descendant. If the defendant was presently insane, then in the second phase, if Freeman was deemed sane, he would be tried on the facts to determine that his criminal responsibility and like what that would be so gotcha. There's two juries there. It's not the same jury. So the first jury has to determine, is he saying insane? And then after if he's saying it goes to the second jury and then the case actually starts to say, he is saying, So let's hear the case. 

00:56:33

And the second jury would not be privy to the first Gotcha. Jury Decision. He saying Trion Cray. A lot of times this happens when there is a very polarizing case. And then a second jury is chosen for the sentencing phase. So it wouldn't be the same. So that's a bifurcated like case in that sense, No beavers involved. No, no. I mean by, for, by pedals hail anyways, I can't get on that at the moment. Just First thing I thought of The next day began the opening arguments for the defense. 

00:57:18

The defense stated that there was no motive for such a brutal murder and that insanity had to be the first consideration. In this case, it was noted that Freeman's family had a history of insanity and mental instability go back to when I said that his sisters were both mentally incapable and that this would imply that Freeman was also predisposed to mental illnesses as well. It was also cited that Freeman's prior conviction for a different crime had to be taken into account because during his imprisonment, he had suffered physical injuries, which included head trauma, causing deafness and quote mental dullness, right. 

00:58:05

District attorney Sherwood opened for the prosecution. And he did not regard the issue of insanity as exclusively medical in nature and said that doctors should not hold the controlling opinion in such a matter. I said, Okay. So Is this just popular opinion? Cause I mean, I'll call people crazy. Moving on That a common man with sound capability and judgment could easily determine insanity through simple physical, personal observation. So I'm mainly A common man. 

00:58:48

I bet why man, who owns land. I bet. I feel as though this is probably accurate. He also said that this common man could easily do this with the same proficiency as a doctor, as De I put this doesn't seem accurate. It's not right. One of these things, not like the other, it is most likely the reason Sherwood was pushing. So adamantly on this point is because Sherwood was looking for a death sentence and to be able to hand down a death sentence, it was stated that there had to be some form of premeditation, which would involve sanity. 

00:59:43

Sherwood put forth that Freeman had planned the assaults of the van ness family and that he had specific weapons to do so, and a specific time that he would arrive. However, one thing that I have not mentioned yet is there wasn't really a question as to whether Freeman committed the criminal act. Only whether it was proper to move forward with trying him in court. He wasn't denying it. You, there was never a question of if he did it. So that's very important to point out in this case, Seward was able to obtain medical expert opinion on Freeman's mental state, but the prosecution had also gathered experts for their side as well. 

01:00:28

They were to testify in both phases of the trial on competency and guilt. Interestingly enough, many of the observations about the defendant's capabilities and deficits were the same on both sides while the interpretations were wildly different. That's interesting doctor, I believe it's an MRI, a Brigham, it's a M a R I a H and Mariah. So that's what I'm going with. Testified for the defense that he had examined Freeman several times in the weeks before the trial, Dr. 

01:01:08

Brigham noted that the defendants limited intelligence in conjunction with the severe beating he received in the prison earlier, left him death. The doctor went on to ask factual questions related to the court and its proceedings, but Freeman was unable to answer them while he would respond. His answers consisted of, I don't know, or he would simply say a horse when referring to his previous case, it was also noted that he sometimes inappropriately laughed during the evaluation and whether he was laughing at the proceedings or whether it was just a nervous, laughter was never really ascertained. 

01:01:50

In this case, Dr. Brigham asked Freeman about the charges against him to see if he understood the wrongdoing and murder. He said the defendant was unable to actually understand him. Despite multiple attempts of speaking to him, the doctor then asked if he understood what being sentenced to death meant, or simply the meaning of being hanged, as well as whether he had been quote crazy in the past Freeman that he went crazy and prison after being struck by a board, Dr. David Dimon was the position brought in for the prosecution and he examined Freeman on six different occasions and concluded that he was not insane, but it was based on Dr. 

01:02:39

Demons definition of insane. His definition stated that there had to be quote some derangement of the intellectual faculties or of the passions, either general or partial. The judge then told the jury quotes. The only question for you to determine is whether he is at present insane, insane for any cause or upon any subject. He can not be tried on the indictment. This is where the difficulty came in for the jury, because no one could actually give a firm definition on what the term of insanity meant. This did not work well in favor of the defense. And the jury was an 11 to one impasse in favor of insanity. 

01:03:25

The judge was obviously frustrated and restated the charge and said that the question was whether the prisoner knows right from wrong. And if he does know right from wrong, then he is considered sane. This will come back to bite him. The jury then determined that Freeman was quote, sufficiently sane and mind and memory to distinguish between right and wrong Seward immediately objected. And the court overruled him. Freeman was considered fit. However, the events following raised questions, and it was noted quote, after the indictment, the district attorney in a very loud tone of voice asked the prisoner. 

01:04:07

If he demanded a trial upon the same to which the prisoner answered, no, the prisoner was asked if he had counsel to which he replied, I don't know. The prisoner was then asked if he was able to employ counsel to which he answered. No, his honor, the circuit judge then directed the clerk to enter the prison's plea of not guilty. So he said, no, I can't obtain counsel when his counsel is staining directly beside him. So he cannot understand what he's saying, right. Or what's being asked him. And he doesn't know how to answer the questions because he doesn't understand Exactly because this was a bifurcated jury. 

01:04:50

That means that in the second portion, a new jury was chosen prosecution. The defense attorneys gave very long opening arguments, citing previous cases of insanity with wildly different standards. There were 72 witnesses for the prosecution and 36 for the defense, with a total of 17 physicians, the range of expert testimony included theories of psychopathology, including genetics, child development, psychic trauma, physical injury, and phrenology, and phrenology is basically the study of the shape and size of the cranium. 

01:05:31

And it's a legit indication of character and mental ability based on the size of someone's skull. We, one of our cases we had, yes, we talked about that because they took the skull to the Smithsonian to take a look at it. Yes. So yes, I have a bad bad then of course, the question was raised that possibly the defendant was faking all of it because why the co-counsel for the defense argued for a broad definition of insanity and cited Isaac res writing, which is exactly what happened in the monotoned defense in 1843. 

01:06:12

You may ask yourself, Kayla, what is the monotoned defense? I'm glad you asked in 1843 England, a man named Daniel monotony attempted to assassinate the British prime minister, who he believed was conspiring against him. Does this sound familiar? Because this is very similar to the trial that proceeded the attempted assassination of Andrew Jackson by Richard Lawrence in 18 35, 1 of my favorite favorite favorites. And while insanity was used as a defense at Richard Lawrence's trial, it was not used in such a way to be determined as one of the actual uses of insanity as a defense due to Daniel McNaughton, his mental state, the court acquitted him, and it established the monotoned rule or the monotoned defense, the house of Lords, which is the upper house of parliament and the United Kingdom delivered the following explanation of the rule quote that every man is to be presumed, to be sane and that to establish a defense on the grounds of insanity, it must be clearly proved that at the time of the committing of the act, the party accused was laboring under such a deficient of reason from diseases of the mind, as not to know the nature and quality of the act he was doing, or if he did know it, that he did not know he was doing what was wrong. 

01:07:56

This meant that the defendant is to be found, not guilty of an offense. If at the time it occurred, his mental disorder was so grave as to one interfere with his ability to know or understand the nature of his criminal behavior. And then to have the defense's ability to know or understand the legal or moral wrongness of his behavior. So you have to determine one that he's insane. And two, he didn't understand that what he was doing was wrong. That is what makes an insanity plea. The two pronged rule that was established in England then became a legal standard for the insanity defense in the United States as well. 

01:08:41

And this case of William Freeman is the first time that this defense was actually used, which is why this is America's first monotoned defense, which is insane that there is no information on this anywhere. That is crazy. Now you see why I was like, why can't I find this? This is like history, like history making defense, and can't find it anywhere. Interesting. According to psychology today, conducting an insanity evaluation and then forming an opinion on a defendant's state of mind at the time of the crime is among one of the most complex tasks. 

01:09:24

A forensic psychologist faces today. The monotony or insanity defense is recognized in Australia, Canada, England, and Wales, Hong Kong, India, the Republic of Ireland, New Zealand, Norway, and most of the United States with the exception of Idaho, Kansas, Montana, Utah, and Vermont. While these states do disallow, the insanity defense, they do allow defendants to demonstrate that they are not capable of forming intent to commit a crime as a result of a mental illness. 

01:10:06

So they can't say that they were insane. They can say that they were not capable at the time to commit a crime. Like they didn't know that their mental state, they couldn't actually commit the crime because of their mental state. It's very confusing. I didn't have time to plead Insanity, but not late in Saying exactly back to bourbon. Yes. It's, it's very confusing. It's very confusing. Like you can't say that there's not a, there's not a two-pronged rule. In that case, you have to basically say that at the time you committed, from what I understand, what I read from the time that you committed the crime, you could not understand that you were committing a crime. 

01:10:57

Yes, essentially. Now that we know what all of that means, the defense was asserting that insanity arose from a diseased brain and Freeman had a delusion that the victims had to pay him for his past wrongs. The defense then took a direct at the district attorney's version of what the insanity standard was, quote, but it says the learned counsel for the prosecution. When we ask what is insanity, the law has settled that indeed. And how has it been settled? Why says the district attorney, any person who knows enough to distinguish right from wrong is saying, but there are many cases. 

01:11:38

And all of these late cases upon the subject decide in the state and also in Massachusetts, which shows the para is not such a law that reflects this Boom, The defense further put forth racial prejudice. And then it was a direct deviation from Christian values, saving that the prosecution was viewing Freeman as quote, unlearned, ignorant, stupid, and a degraded. I understand this is part of a quote. 

01:12:18

I just put in parentheses inward, but not that one. It's too close to the line for me to say, don't feel comfortable with it. The co-counsel for the defense then turned to the jurors and reminded them that quote God made of one blood, all the nations of the earth, and then proceeded to present testimony for many witnesses who were acquainted with Freeman specifically Freeman's obsession with payback. And one doctor said that quote, this dissolution in my judgment is an insane delusion and the delusion of an insane mind, the prosecution of course called forth several doctors who stated the defendant was not insane at the time. 

01:12:59

In question, Dr. Dimon, who we discussed previously said, quote, Freeman is ignorant and depraved yet. I was unable to discover where in any of his faculties had been disrupted. I discovered nothing about him indicating insanity. Another doctor called to the stand was Dr. Leander Bigelow. Interesting. There you go. And he said, quote, taking all evidence into case together. I am satisfied that he is an ignorant Dole, stupid morose and degraded again, inward, but not that one, but not insane. 

01:13:43

And I just put, dude, he's standing right there. Like he's literally in court, but Also remember. I mean, I get it Verbiage at that time. Describing mental deficiencies were very different. I Mean, I get It, but like, but still Call him. I know, I know. I know No excuse for that. Like I get that. That's wrong. I get back then. That was the terminology. And I get that. But how ever, like you also have to know and saying those words that is extremely offensive to anyone. 

01:14:23

Like you have to know that Just to give his professional opinion, Those are the professional words that were used at the time. I don't believe It. It's true. Unfortunately, Sewer to appeal to the values of the jury, starting with the biblical injunction against killing and describe the defendant's troubled life and his path to insanity mean Killing is wrong. It is. He ridiculed the first jury's inability to understand his client's deficiencies mocking the conversation between Freeman and the prosecutor. The district attorney asked him whether he wanted a trial and the poor fool answered. 

01:15:07

No. He asked him, have you a counsel? No. And they went through the same mockery and he stood before the court silent motionless and bewildered Seward's argument was for the jurors to set aside racial prejudice and to extend to the defendant. Basic Christian values. Prosecution asked the jurors to disregard the prisoners appearance, as well as the testimony of doctors, quote, criminal eras forgot about this quote. This quote will get you quote, criminal irresponsibility is a question of law, not medicine praising the evolution of law and reference to insanity from the time of Cain and Abel through the monotoned trial, he stated a standard for insanity in a criminal case was quote, incapacity to distinguish between right and wrong. 

01:16:08

In regard to the particular act committed or an inability from disease to resist the commission of the act. He urged the jury to look past the argument that Freeman was wrongly imprisoned and entitled payback. His motive was simply malice and spite. The prosecution went on to praise Dr. Brigham's medical credentials, but then said, quote, he is as profoundly ignorant of law as he is familiar with medicine. And I just put, so then aren't all of the doctors that you called to trial. Also ignorant of the law, Moving on the prosecution concluded that uncontradicted facts, quote, show beyond the possibility of doubt that Freeman knew he was doing wrong and had full control over his actions. 

01:16:59

Judge wooding asked the jury with deciding on the law, applied to the murder and sanity. He recalled the dual test to knowing right from wrong from the monotoned rules and having sufficient use of reason to control one's passions. A local paper recalled the tension in the community. During the jury deliberations quote, the courthouse was surrounded by an immense multitude of excited people ready to shout the CRI crucify him, crucify him. It is more than probable had the jury failed to convict Freeman. The jail would have been stormed in the poor wretch hanged in the streets and perhaps the personal safety of Mr. 

01:17:39

Seward also endangered. The jurors took hardly any time to convict Freeman sentencing was set for July 24th, 1846. And during it, judge witting attempted to have a conversation from the bench with William Freeman. This is their conversation. Judge, you have been tried for killing Mr. Van nest. Do you understand that prisoner don't know, judge, we are now going to sentence you, the jury say you killed him. Do you know what I mean? 

01:18:19

Prisoner? I don't know, judge. Do you hear what I said? Do you know what I mean? You've been tried for killing him. Do you understand that? Do you know that the jury say you're guilty that you did kill him? Do you understand that prisoner? I don't know. Judge, do you know who the jury are? Those men who sit along there will they say you did kill him and that now we are going to sentence you to be hanged. Do you understand that prisoner? Yes. Judge. 

01:19:01

Have you anything to say against it? Anything to tell me about it? Prisoner? I don't know. Despite the interaction William Freeman was sentenced to death or returned to the jail Seward immediately put forth a motion for an appeal. Attorneys, Seward and rights submitted a 27 point bill of exceptions, listing errors committed during various phases of the trials. The appellate arguments were heard November of 1846. The New York Supreme court announced a decision in January of 1847 with justice Beardsley cool-ass name writing for the court. 

01:19:47

He began with the rule quote, no one sane person can be tried sentenced to any punishment or punishment for any crime or offense while he continues in that state, the decision relied on the English case of the not and rules. And it was noted that New York statute did not set forth a method for determining insanity. The justice said that ordinarily, there are no grounds to reverse a judgment in a preliminary trial, but he made an exception here because judge witting used the single criteria of knowing right from wrong in the competency phase. 

01:20:30

And the court was wrong in determining the insanity. And therefore the judgment was defective. That makes me happy. Well, don't get too excited. Well, I get the judge then quoted the monotoned role and said that distinguishing right from wrong at the time of the act was the correct test or jury instruction. Quote, partial insanity is not necessarily an excuse for crime. If it were, it would afford absolute impunity to every person in an insane state. The act must be an insane act and not merely the act of the insane person. 

01:21:11

The justice concluded that it was wrong for the trial court to have restricted the defense's expert testimony in the guilt phase. The decision was to overturn William Freeman's conviction, greening him a new trial under new York's new insanity standards, but let's not get too excited. Three trial was expected to begin in March of 1847, but judge wedding visited William Freeman in jail and found he was not physically fit to withstand trial. 

01:21:51

Even though he still left him, changed to the wall in the jail, Dr. Fosgate who was the doctor who I cited and who also checked him out before he left the hospital for he left not the hospital, the jail the first time, this is the same doctor who was also evaluating him. Now, Dr. Fosgate reported his condition from the jail. Noting that Freeman's hearing loss was nearly total at this point, sorry, this is kind of gross. I get it. But it has to be said he had pus coming from out of his ear and his vision was severely deteriorated. 

01:22:33

By this point, the doctor also diagnosed him at this time with pulmonary tuberculosis, for knowledgist L N Fowler examined Freeman in 1847, concluding that he had imperfect brain development and an unbalanced mind in August of 1847, William Freeman's chains were removed and he died six days later, post-mortem examinations, including to front illogical assessments were supportive that William Freeman's brain pathology was completely consistent with insanity. 

01:23:23

And that is America's first monotoned defense and the trial of William Freeman, Poor guy. It is really at mean, obviously murder is bad. We've discussed this like that. I get that. I also there's a lot. There's a lot. I also cook. This is 13 pages of notes, guys, 13, and there's so much more, I could have included to go along with the case and to go along with the monotoned rules, but we just simply did not have the time to go into all of it. I hate that a family was killed. Yes, that is horrible. 

01:24:05

It is a boring honestly, But the treatment of this guy, he was wrongly imprisoned, Allegedly, allegedly the first time for stealing a horse, we, he says he was wrongly imprisoned. Again. We don't know, we cannot speak to that. However, he proclaims that he was in a Sense of the authorities to help Give him, I mean, I agree. It sounds like some dirty data does, but they were as, as I have heard someone say in cahoots, Oh yeah. Not in cahoots, but in cahoots, They definitely were. I will say that, that, that, yes. 

01:24:46

And then for someone to beat eye at that, I mean, And it makes you think of Shawshank redemption. So, you know, the first night that they came in, they were all betting on who the first person would be. And then, you know, they find out that the God died. It Is because He was beaten. So severely that That's what it reminds me of too. Yeah. It's, it's super unfortunate. But the, and, and yes, all of this is unfortunate. Obviously murder is bad. We've discussed this poor. My shock today comes in with the fact that no one knows about this case, and this is not a widely known case. 

01:25:33

It doesn't have a frickin Wikipedia. Like it's Wikipedia. Like it's not, this is not Britannica. Like this is not Merriam-Webster. This is, this is Wikipedia, like nowhere. And this was a case that occurred in 1846. Like I should have been able to find this immediately. And I had to dig to find this, like, that's what, and this is the first time that this was actually used. It's just insane to me and Well, and the mistreatment of someone who can't help themselves, you want to know something that'll burn me up. 

01:26:16

Oh, a hundred percent. And this was just one of those things. And it it's unfortunate, but this is one of those times where I'm glad we have the podcast that we have, because I'm glad that we can find these cases. And I'm glad that we can kind of pull these cases out of obscurity. Yeah. And bring them forward again to her. Hopefully this now becomes a larger conversation. It makes me kind of wonder about his whole family that, because he had two sisters. So, I mean, I wonder And no telling really how many other siblings they just said that the two SIS, it was just noted that those two sisters had mental inefficiencies. 

01:26:57

I wonder, you know, what was going on there? You know, I Know, I don't know. And that, yeah. I wondered that too, Because that's, that's unusual to have, you know, more than one child that, you know, has some sort of mental issue. It makes you wonder if it was a malnourishment thing. Cause you know, that can sometimes lead to sometimes that can sometimes lead to that. Whether it be, It was something that was in the, in the environment itself, if it was, you know, an environmental issue or if it w you know, I, I don't understand what it could have been either. 

01:27:45

It was very weird. It was very, yes. And could not find anything on it, which was just crazy To me. Crazy. So, And just number one, no one is less than anyone. We all put our pants on one leg at a time everybody's poop stinks. I mean, it's just that, that's just a fact of life. No one is better than anyone. You may have a nicer car than somebody, but you know, at the end of the day, we're all the same on the inside. We got all the same parts on the inside. And, you know, I mean, that just, nobody's better than anybody doesn't matter what color your skin is on the outside. 

01:28:31

It doesn't matter where you live, whatever you are not better than anybody. How dare you. And you know, what, if you're smarter than somebody, if you have the mains to help somebody do it, You know, don't just stand there and make fun of them. Don't try to scam them. Don't try to, you know, try to set them up for a crime that you did because they're an easy target as despicable that is discussed. And unfortunately, That's what happens Today. Even still is the amount of cases that I see where people are wrongfully convicted is honestly sickening. 

01:29:18

And It just makes me so angry. It is angry because the law, While the law is the law. And just as there are good people in, there are bad people share good lawyers and bad lawyers. There are good police officers and bad police officers while we greatly appreciate in Every Profession and every profession, while we greatly appreciate the sacrifice of our law enforcement. We also understand that not everyone does their job with the same pure intent as others, first Responders, Exactly. 

01:30:01

And public service, and to see some cases where it is just, I mean, I can't think of the word at the moment, but just in intentional, the word I'm looking for, where it is intentional to frame, not even frames one, but in cases that you see where someone decides who they want, and then they work backwards with the evidence, instead of using the evidence to find the person, they find the person and then make the evidence. 

01:30:41

But it's things like that where it's like, Like there's so many times where that is seen. And it's scary, honestly, because it is, it is so easy after researching a lot of different things like the west Memphis three and just different cases. There's one out of Mississippi Curtis flowers. That is just that district attorney in Mississippi. It is one of the craziest things I've ever seen. The guy's been completely innocent for years. His case has been tried like seven times. 

01:31:24

He was clear. It is anyways. It's I don't have time to go into that rage right now, but it seeing cases like that, it is scary and sobering to see how easy it is to be convicted of a crime that you didn't do, because someone thinks you did it. And that person has a position of authority. And that is terrifying. Well, and it, it starts in elementary school. You know, my, my background is in education and I have seen with my own eyes, like I taught kindergarten, first grade, second grade, and I would see some, I would see kids like set up other kids, slower kids, not as quick on the uptake, kids set them up for things. 

01:32:25

It starts in there. It starts There, Set them up for things. I'm sorry. That's not okay. That is a taught behavior. Not a learned one. Oh, I will say that. Yeah, absolutely. And, and it can be taught by a friend, not necessarily a parent. And then you have the little groups and I mean, I've had, I've had talks with kids, you know? Yeah. I mean, and I've had talks with, with, with kids. We don't do that to friends. We help each other. We don't, you know, we don't, you know, that's not okay. Yeah. And It makes me angry And it does. 

01:33:07

And it's, especially with me having a child, having to navigate these waters of things being said, and me having to say, I understand that a friend said that, let me tell you why that's wrong. Yes. Or let me explain to you. I make it a very careful point because while I don't know, I don't believe I don't see color. I don't believe that standard because I do. Yeah. Every week You and you celebrate the difference. You Celebrate people's differences and you appreciate what you have in common. And that is the basis of things. But what I also try to do with her is she has a friend at school that she will constantly say, this, this child's name. 

01:33:58

And I don't, I think that the child might be Hispanic, But I don't know. And so I try, I've been trying, and I've been trying to figure out for a reason, because we had a really bad flood that came through the area recently. I was trying to kind of figure out what area she lived in. I knew what area was heavily affected. It is what it is. There are areas of the town that I live in that are more densely, Hispanic populated. And I was trying to figure out where she lived, trying to figure out how we could help, if we could help, what we could do, Like help was needed. 

01:34:38

Help was needed. Exactly. Based on those kinds of demographics, Being like, Hey, And so in the best I said, I was trying to come up with a very, what's the best way to try and approach this. Cause I don't want to say, I don't want to make a differentiator. Right. Of is she blocked? That's not what I want to identify someone with. That's not while yes. That is your culture. That is your heritage. That is beautiful. You, that, that is wonderful. 

01:35:19

That's not what I want her to imagine and see and go, yes, that is my friend, my friend, you know, like I don't yeah. I was trying to be very careful. And so I just said, does she speak Spanish? Do you notice? Does she speak Spanish? And she said, no, she doesn't speak Spanish. Keep in mind. My child is very into the Hispanic culture. It's very interesting. It's a whole ordeal. She Will correct your potential. She Will cringe. If you say in Canto that kid and two seconds, we'll go, it's Encanto police. 

01:36:00

Like she will not, it is not Mirabelle. It's Mirabel she will meet you in two seconds. She is not playing around with that. She is all about it. But, and she would also ask me questions about like, what does me Cora sawn mean? And I would explain her, like, that means my heart kind of like my love, like that's what she's calling me to rebel is she's calling her her love. Like you are my heart. You're my love. So she understands those things. So she knows what that means. And I said, does she speak Spanish? Just in, because I knew one heavily effected area that was, you know, heavily Hispanic. And she goes, Nope. And I was like, okay, all right. 

01:36:44

And I had discussed It. No. Yeah. Like how dare you? I was like, okay. She looked at me like I was a peasant. All right. And so, but it's, it's those things where you, you have to, as a parent, to a young child, you have to think of those things in a way of what is going to be the best way for me to say this or position this, or try and approach something and also not have her categorize her friends or not have her put someone in a box. 

01:37:28

Like, that is my biggest thing, because just, you Want her to be kind To everyone. Like, I don't care. Like whatever, like I don't care. I, I would, I don't want that. And so it was, and I actually ended up having to ask her teacher and I just said, Hey, my daughter has said that this is one of her friends in class. And I understand that something like occurred. I'm just wondering if they anything, like, have you heard anything? Cause we have like an app that we can talk to the teacher. And I was like, have you heard anything? Do you know of anything? Like, we're more than willing to help. I'll make it completely anonymous. I'm fine with that. I just want to make sure they're okay. 

01:38:10

Cause my daughter told me, she said, well, they're living in a hotel for now. And so that was when I knew, like it was bad. They could not live in their house. And so, you know, I wanted to make sure, and I, you know, I said, this is who her friend is. And, and the way that I did it as a sick, do you know her last name? Because I thought we might know someone who might know them and she told me your last name. And I was like, Hm, like, I'm not really sure. And so, you know, I just told the teacher, I was like, Hey, if she needs anything, please let us know. Like, I'm more than happy to help. 

01:38:51

I don't mind I'll make it completely anonymous. It doesn't matter. Like this is my daughter's friend. I just want to make sure that if we can help, because God bless Ellie. She was like, I mean, our house is big enough. And I went, holy love. And she goes, the house down is, and this was at a time where yes, my child, I am not claiming that I have done any of this. All I will say is she has the purest heart. And there was a house down the street that was for sale. 

01:39:32

And she noticed, and she said, oh, I wonder if I should tell Blank's family because maybe they could just move in down the street from us and they could have a house. And I was like, all right. And then this past weekend, I told you, my, my mom has horses. And one of her horses sadly passed away in the past few weeks. And so we were down there for mother's day and they have four stalls. And of course one is now empty and Ellie was going around, feeding the horses, like cookies. They're just like horse treats. And she goes over to the empty store. 

01:40:13

So the first time she's been there since yes. And she went over there, but she knew like she knew it wasn't a thing where she didn't know, she just went over there and she was like giving a cookie to an invisible horse and talking to it. And she was like, here's a cookie for you, lady Mac. And it was like, my mom was like, I was like, oh my gosh, this is the cutest thing I've ever seen in my life. And she was, but she, my mom was like, oh, that's good. She can have a cookie and having an elegance. She's a ghost. Here's my kid. 

01:40:55

There she is. So there's that to leave you with your week. It's like all you could be, right kid. You don't know, there are no ghost horses on our website, but you can go and find our website. It is one nation under crime.com. We are one nation under crime, literally everywhere. You can find us unless you're on Twitter and it's at Owen, UC pod, go find us on Patrion. You can hear our Patrion episode this week. Trust me the reptile dysfunction. 

01:41:36

It is all you four and more. Yes, it is fantastic. I hope our Patriana enjoyed that this week. It was a little different. We mixed it up from what we typically do. So hopefully that was a nice little, little surprise for them to kind of get into, get into something a little bit different than what we cover on the normal feed. So if you want to become a Patrion one, you should too. All you have to do is go to patrion.com/one nation under crime. There are several different tiers to choose from and you can choose your own tier as well. 

01:42:18

We appreciate you guys so much for listening to this week's episode of one nation under crime. I will point out it is 1, 2, 3, 4 a am. At this point, we got to go. We love you guys. We appreciate you. We will see you here. Same probably not this same exact time or recording this but different crime. Yes. Next week. And remember there isn't always Liberty and justice for all. And we, this week, we'll leave it simply at that. There you go. 

01:42:59

<inaudible> good. Bye.