A body is found in the Hudson River. Four years earlier a newspaper falsely reported a woman missing. What happened to Mary Cecilia Rogers?
This week the ONUC gals discuss the mysterious death of Mary Cecilia Rogers, the men surrounding her death, the theories of her death, and what part Edgar Allen Poe plays in it.
Trigger Warning Level: Low
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Sources: Historical True Crime Detective, Medium, Smithsonian Mag, Mental Floss, Atlas Obscura, and Murder By Gaslight
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You are listening to one nation under crime, historical chronological, true crime podcast. Each week we go through our nation's history and discuss one case from each year, starting in 1800. I'm Kayla and I'm Leah. We are off and running this week. I can tell you that <em></em> this is a lot of research for this episode. I can say that it has been an interesting one to look into so detail it it's it's interesting. We'll say that Brad, my favorite NSA agent is for sure, putting a closer watch on me these days.
I mean, can you get closer? Okay. He's he's getting to, I feel as though he's emotionally invested at this point and it's really unhealthy and honestly, you shouldn't be, we need his address so we can send him like a card. He's probably listening. So I mean, does shoot it to us, man. Just let me know. You got all the content. You already know all the information about me. It's only fair. So we'll go ahead and get into it this week, because I don't really know how long this episode is. It's going to be a little bit different, kind of from what we've done before and you'll, we'll see why she never tells me this until we start recording now. So I'm just a surprise, sorry, sources for this week, we have my, a nickname, the historical crime detective.
Then we have medium.com, Smithsonian, mag.com, mental floss, always a good one. Atlas Obscura, also a really fun website. And then your favorite, my favorite Brad's favorite murder by gas, murder by Gaslight. Look at you. Look at me. So we're in the year of 1838 this year. We're we're just going right past we're now in episode 41. So we're just creeping on up there almost to my age almost next week, next week, next week. So we'll get to our events in 1838, January six, Samuel Morse and Alfred Vale.
First publicly demonstrated the Telegraph that you used dots and dashes. And this was the forerunner to what became Morris code. January 26th, Tennessee Enactus. I brought, I said this last week that this was coming. So I forewarned y'all to get emotionally prepared. Here we go, Tennessee enacted the first prohibition law in the United States. I just put in parentheses, BU I mean, we blew Tennessee all the, of all places like Maine, really Tennessee. Cause lots of, lots of good stuff happens here. It's fine.
February 15th, Kentucky. Look at them, go passed a law, permitting women to attend school when certain conditions were met. Oh, Well I thought you were going to say something about bourbon. No, not yet. Not this week. March 8th, the New, what conditions you Didn't say they were Dani come excited. Well, they didn't say what conditions there were. I'm going to assume they were a bit strenuous. Oh, well, So what I'm going to go? Well, that's all I wanted to know what conditions like, you know, they could stand on their head while reciting something or honorably. I mean, who knows? Maybe. So. I don't know that they didn't say okay, continue.
And I had enough research to do for this episode. So you nine March eight, the new Orleans mint struck its first coinage 30 dimes. Well, I mean three Whole dollars. That's a, that's a lot. That's I mean She don't think that even fits a whole Role. No, I think, I think a role is Role is $5. I used to be a bank teller things. April 27th, a fire broke out that destroyed half of Charleston. We did talk about that in our episode about Levenia Fisher. I could tell you more about Charleston moving off.
Oh gosh, may 26. The Cherokee removal began with the forced relocation of the Cherokee native American tribe, which resulted in the deaths of an estimated 4,000 Cherokee tribe members Because he belonged even saying it to at this time we get That's rare. It will never happen again. Again, One squirrel nut, something like that. June 12th, the Iowa territory was created at the time of its founding Iowa territory, encompassed parts of modern day, Minnesota, South Dakota, North Dakota, as well as all of Iowa.
That's a lot. And September 3rd, future abolitionist, Frederick Douglas, we talked about him last week. He boarded a train in Maryland using identification papers from a freed Naval seaman to escape Lavery and can I tell you my sweet, you know, the, the portrait that everybody knows? Oh, I I'm. I, I do recall Frederick. I do recall. And I do know where this is going. Yes, yes. Sweet Leonard. His hair look just like it. He looks like Frederick Douglas Shaw, like his, his hair with This ears. So anyways, September 19th, Efram Morris patented the railroad break.
I'm sure a lot of people were really thankful for that. Yes. And I let the name F From F firms have fun name. I love it. October 5th, the killer massacre occurred. It is believed to have been both the largest and last native American attack on white settlers in east Texas, there were 18 casualties that were either the people were either killed or carried away. Which to be honest, you're taking my land. I mean, which I've lived here forever. I mean, I, I, I can't say that I can blame them.
October 6th. Killing is bad. I mean it is, but I get it and keep in mind at the same time though, all the Cherokee, they just had 4,000 people killed. It's just, it's not a good time for anybody. So October 16th, the grave Creek stone was allegedly discovered in Moundsville West Virginia. It is a small sand stone disc inscribed on one side with some 25 characters. If genuine, it could prove the evidence of a primitive alphabet, but the discovery that the characters can be found.
Yeah. But the discovery that the characters can be found in a 1752 books suggests that it was probably a fraud, a fraudulent October 27th, Missouri governor Lilburn, Boggs. That's a name issued the extermination order, which ordered all Mormons to leave the state or be exterminated. Oh my gosh, like you exterminate and you exterminate like yeah, yeah. Exterminate determination order.
Oh my stars. And I'm sure we'll dig into it more because we do have an episode coming up that will be Mormon centric because it's, it's an interesting, interesting, Ooh, there's a murder a foot. So of course there's a, we will get to that eventually. And so I'm sure we'll dig some more into that. BI was called the extermination order. So you had to either leave or die. That is, I mean, people Gar, right? I mean murder as well. Extermination of people that's really, that just sounds terrible. Really does. And our undated event for this year, the brown school was established in North Carolina.
It is now duke university, our births in 1838, January 4th, we have a general Tom thumb. We talked about him and our PT, Barnum emphasis. I know who that is. He's a circus and entertainer. And he is known for being a part of PT. Barnum's shows. He is a Capricorn. He also, we, what are we talking about that? So he also started drinking by the time he was like nine. Yeah. He was like real young. It was bad. Not a good time. Nope. Nope. Janie's famous. Yes. He was January 29th. Edward Williams. Morley was an American scientist known for his precise and accurate measurement of the atomic weight of oxygen.
Oh, kind of important. He is in Aquarius. Oh, oh, come on. Gracious. February 22nd. Margaret Elizabeth sand, Margaret Elizabeth. Sangster. That's what we're going to go with. Okay. She is an American poet, author and editor. She was eventually the editor of Harper's Bazaar. First woman. She, I don't know. It just said she was eventually an editor of Harper's Bazaar. So I don't know if she was the first. Yeah, but this was in 1830.
So I mean, it was before the 19 hundreds that she, for sure, because I mean just based off of the years, but yeah, it was pretty impressive. So she's a Pisces May 10th. This is a name that everyone knows. John Wilkes booth was born. We know him. He was an actor and the eventual assassin of 16th president of the United States, Abraham Lincoln. He is a Taurus and yes, we do have an episode on old Abe. So we will get to him eventually as well. This just said July, just July. Oh the whole month. I guess that's a really long labor.
His name was bass Reeves. Really cool name. By the way. He is one of the first black deputy us marshals west of the Mississippi river. Those were some bad days. We're going to talk about them too at some point. So I'm pretty excited about that. There's some bad dudes. You did not mess with him. No. So given basses date of birth, he could S bass. He could either be a cancer orally. Like did they put two words together? Like he was bad. I mean, I don't know. He's a deputy us marshal. So I'm gonna say yes. I'm just what I'm going to go with. I wonder if he knew Walker, Texas ranger anyways.
So December 3rd and yes guys, I do know that Texas Walker ranger was a lot, lot longer after that, but yeah, such a good show. December 3rd, Cleveland, Abe. He was an American meteorologist and advocate for time zones. He is the father of the national weather service. Oh. And he's a Sagittarius. They give me alerts on my phone, not on mine. I, you know, I don't need that negativity so that, That's why I texted her and say, Hey, are you safe? Are you okay? Is the Creek behind you? Flooding? We, oh gosh, we had so not long ago when, when we talked about it on the episode, when the tornado came, we talked about it in an earlier episode in depth about when the tornado hit like three doors down from Leo at the same time.
It not the same tornado, but in the same, in the same storm of that day, one came extremely close to my house and, and I checked on her. I might have been driving home at a time when I was like, we gotta get, cause we were at the office and I was like, we got to go. Like we gotta go now. And so, which was actually a good thing because the road that our office is on closed, then trees and stuff got down. And so yeah, we had, we waited. You would have been stuck. We would have been stuck there because at least for a while.
So anyways, it was, it was interesting. But yeah, national weather service, we got all James span. So as long as I don't see those suspenders and nobody outside of the state of Alabama knows what that means, but we had great weather, man. We love James Spann. He is, if he's listening, hi, help you. Listen. We ha I love James fan. This was the tornado that as he was on, he got news. The tornado had just hit his house. Yes. And he was on. So he is basically the weatherman of all of Alabama. He's wonderful. He's fantastic.
Probably to be honest, I did study, like we talked about this. I did study journalism and broadcast and those kinds of things, he truly is one of the best weathermen that I've ever seen. And that's not just being like partial to him. Like we all love our broker, but he, like, he knows these places. He will say like booby traps. So we have a place in Alabama that is a dance night club of sorts for adult entertainment called, sorry if children around, but it's called Wesley's booby trap. And so that is truly a marker. When he's discussing really bad weather, we've heard him and he won't say the full name.
You'll notice he'll always go. This is near Wesley's and he'll say the city name, but he knows where everything is. Like, it doesn't matter as well. And your roads, he knows like, , he'll tell you and he'll tell you, you need to be in your safe space. If you're near here and you're here in his jacket, some off it's getting pretty serious. He rolled up. He's got it first. It's the suspenders. So if you see the jacket come off and he always wears suspenders, you see the jacket, come off, you see the suspenders things are getting real. You see the sleeves roll up. You need to seek shelter. Yes, it is getting because he guys like, he stays on like 12 hours on the news.
Like it's insane. He's and we are just going to become a James fan fan club at some point, I suppose. But truly he'll say like, this is in Clanton. And he'll say like, this is at the corner of this street and this street that's where like this store is like, how do you know those things without he just knows the areas. So the joke is always that like James ban says, like, this is going to be on this street and this street, you know, the one where it used to be that restaurant, but it's not anymore next to the trailer where Ms. Martha live, by the way, if anybody lives in this area, go tell miss Martha to seek shelter. Like, that's always the joke because he truly does know these areas so well, and he's great.
He's fantastic. He's very nice. We love him. He always comes to our college and speaks with the elementary education department. So it's great. He is a really good at that. He's always a lot of schools and he made us really great with the kids. He told me I had great regional diction and I was very proud of that as someone in broadcast, which basically means if I'm speaking in certain ways, you could not tell where I am from based on like, you wouldn't say that is not true for me. Yeah. That is not true for you. I am. I record these episodes and I also edit them. So yes, I'm more. Look, I am, I am. But I've been told that my, my accent is charming.
Being seven is not a bad thing. Sometimes. I suppose I can lay it on thick if I need to. I mean, I could, I just prefer not to. I don't care. I am who I am. Our deaths in 1838, March 7th. We have Robert Townson. He is most known for being a member of the Culper spiring. No, that name for something else might be. And then September 1st, William Clark, famous Explorer of the Lewis and Clark expedition. He is the Clark and Lewis and Clark. We did talk about Merryweather in an earlier episode.
And so William Clark died September 1st, 1838. We are going to get into our case for this week. And I did say that this is a little bit different from some of the other cases that we have done before. And there is a reason and we'll get to it. So October 5th, 1838, the New York sun falsely reported that Ms. Mary Cecilia Rogers had disappeared from her home. And then July 28th, 1841, police found the corpse of a woman in Hoboken, New Jersey floating in the Hudson river.
So how do we go from a woman being falsely reported to her being dead? Well, I mean, over a span of three years, it's interesting. We'll get to it. So as you just heard, we are between New York and New Jersey for this week. We are mainly in New York city. We have discussed in New York city. So many times in our podcast already, truly you can learn most everything you want to know about New York city by listening to those episodes. So this is a more kind of, it's a, it's a big case because a lot of things go on.
So we're not covering an area this week. We're not covering anything extra. We're just going straight into our case. Dive in we're diving, right in Mary Cecilia, Rogers was born in Lyme, Connecticut. She was likely born in 1820, but the birth records aren't able to be found. Yeah, we do know that she was the only child of Phoebe and James Rogers. Sadly, her father died in a steam boat explosion. Yeah. Yeah. We talked about that last week. That's one of the top, one of the other top five ways to go that I would not want.
There seems to be some debate on how old Mary was when this occurred, because some sources said that she was five, other sources said she was 17. There's a bit of a gap there. That's really not a bit on that. Plus like, I can understand you say five or seven or so. We'll see from, y'all heard how many sources I had for this one episode. I had like six, which is not common for the episodes that I do. Usually there's only a couple, but there is a reason this case is so covered that we'll get to at the end. And there is a lot of speculation as to what occurred, what happened, the timeline of events.
So you'll hear me say that in some sources that said this, but other sources that said this, and it's because there is a divide. Like there were, there were two sources that said one thing, but there were three sources that said the other. So it's like, it's not like I can say, oh, well this was in one source. Put the majority of them said this it's like it was split everywhere. And so, and there's also a reason for that as well. So we'll get in the, I know we'll get into some more of it with her. She truly is a mystery and, and it, and an interesting one at that. So by the time Mary was 17, she was living the boarding house that her mother ran in New York city.
And she decided to get a job as a clerk and a tobacco shop. The shop was owned by John Anderson and it was on Broadway, near Thomas street in New York city. We know her Broadway as there was some tension around the decision because Mary's mother did not want her to go and work there. One reason being that Mary had never worked away from the boarding house, but the real reason was because there was a rumor that the shop was a meeting place for men who had particular shady dealings, Mary's mother eventually allowed her to go. And Mary started her new job at Anderson's tobacco Emporium, honestly, an epic name for a tobacco shop.
I mean, anything that says an employee, it makes it just sound like, I imagine like really intricate woodcarving inside of the building. Like I like a super high end cigar shop. Like that's what I think of, like you go in and it smells like cigar and Cedar. It just, I love the smell. It's a good smell. It really it's a good, and it always has that Cedar smell with it because of what to, you know, cause the humidor, right? Cause you keep a Cedar kind of helps pull out any moisture in areas and stuff like that. But that just, that's what that sounded like to me, just like leather chairs that are kind of that elevates just a little bit, makes it a little bit more, you know, I'm all about fans.
I mean, it just sounds fun. So Mary got her job there and surprisingly Mary made really good money working in the tobacco shop or not surprisingly, surprisingly, she was paid that well because she was attractive and she brought in a lot of customers. So he paid her a lot to keep her. And then she was said to be very beautiful. So one source said, quote, the girl's conduct was apparently a model of modest decorum. And while she was lavish in her smiles, she did not hesitate to repel all undo advances for her.
I know I loved that description of her wrap those knuckles. If you get a little too, I mean, one customer wrote that he spent an entire afternoon at the store only to exchange teasing glances with her. Another admirer published a poem in the New York Herald referring to her heaven like smile and star like eyes. She even turned the heads of some notable literary figures, such as Washington, Irving and editors of most of the New York papers. And they were all known to the shop due to Mary dies. Mary became somewhat of a local celebrity, as you can tell.
And the local press gave her a nickname. She was known as the beautiful cigar girl, ah, on the morning of October 5th, 1838, the shop opened, but Mary was nowhere to be found. John Anderson, the owner of the store was concerned and asked Phoebe if she had seen her daughter that morning, the New York sun picked up the news and reported that miss Mary Cecilia Rogers had disappeared from her home. Her mother reported her missing and said that she found a suicide note, oh, the note was examined by the local coroner. And he said, it revealed a quote, fixed an unalterable determination to destroy herself, which is notable because the next day, the times and commercial intelligence newspaper reported that the entire disappearance was just a hoax.
And Mary simply went to visit a friend in Brooklyn. The news of the Haute started to catch on and the public was questioning the integrity of both Mary and the New York sun. Remember, and I put into being honest, who could forget the great moon hoax published by the New York sun was just two years earlier than this or by bipedal tailless beavers. I told you all, they were making a comeback this week. You didn't believe me. I told you they would be back. They would be back. And it is because of these beavers that no one, you know, they're like credibility.
You're like maybe it is a hoax. Maybe it is. I'm just saying those beaver, that, that beaver worked really hard to destroy that telescope. I, that Ray, I mean, he just, he took one for the team really? And then they turned him into hats and those women wore them before the trial. It's a whole, I mean, just to man, I mean, God does beaver mops. They'll get ya every time that you spend any time. So it's then a Mo you know, a random Muff could be found out and about. And you're murdering, who knows. There's so many different things, right by the will. So these stories of the great moon hoax kind of push to hurt them.
Yeah. I put, well, the citizens had not forgotten. The bipedal tale is beavers, which put more fuel on the fire. Well, understandably, I mean, the accusations from the times and commercial intelligence newspaper became fact in the minds of many new Yorkers, the son was accused of fabricating the story and the interest of only selling newspapers and Mary's boss. John Anderson was also accused being in on the hoax. Well, turned out, it kind of was a hoax is probably a better description would be misreported. However many sources still believe that it was a bit of a publicity stunt for Anderson's tobacco emporiums to get a little bit of free press.
Six days later, Mary was back and it turns out she actually did go out of town to visit a friend and just didn't tell her mother. So where did this note come from? As for an explanation for a suicide note, I could not find anything. Oh, that's helpful. Yeah. Couldn't find anything the first ever marry. Suppose the disappearance proved to be a good thing for the tobacco shop. Once word got out that Mary was back, the shop was busier than ever, but there was something different about Mary. She seemed sad and her famous smile rarely made an appearance anymore.
Oh, if anyone asked where Mary had gone during her quote disappearance, she would quickly snap at them and say she was visiting relatives in the countryside. And when anyone asked her boss or her mother, they said the same thing. It was clear to anyone who asked that it was a bit of a touchy subject and no one would ever ask any more questions past that. It wasn't long after Mary's returned. That rumors started to spread. That claimed she was not in the countryside at all. But she was seen in Brooklyn with a tall, handsome Naval officer. It had been barely a week since Mary came back. And once she heard the rumors, she quit working at the cigar shop without notice and went back to work at her mother's boarding house.
There are others who speculate that all of the attention Mary received when she returned was too much for her. And that's why she quit. And then there was never any discussion of a man. Like there's one story that says, or there's a couple that say age, people saw her with this man. And once the rumors started, that's when she quit. And then there's others that mentioned nothing about a man. And they say that Mary just was receiving too much attention when she got back. And that's why she quit. Well, Anne, and I can understand that it may, especially if they were, I have my own theory, but I'm going to keep quiet until regardless of the reason for her quick departure, Mary had established a kind of reputation for herself among the men in town.
And even though Mary enjoyed her privacy at the boarding house on 1 26 Nassau street, she had several of admirers and it wasn't uncommon for her to entertain the attention of a man or few of them. At one time, girl got to eat. She says, I'm hungry top look, look, I'm just saying I'll step I'll step. Halfway on my soap box for a minute. Men who date multiple women are called a player. Women who date multiple men are called a hussy. This is true. I'm just saying, look, you got a man that's going to feed you Monday night.
One, that's gonna feed you Tuesday night, Wednesday, third, look, you never have to pay for a meal. You get to, you get interesting conversation with multiple people at one time. As long as everyone, all parties are aware, nobody needs to be aware. Nobody wants to be in everybody. Else's business. Look, look, some things can just be one sided. And that's okay. I'm just saying, if anybody has seen the Tinder swindler on Netflix, it's a documentary that just came out a couple of weeks ago. I think me and my boyfriend watched it quite interesting. It is truly so I'll jump into it for a second just because it's recent.
But this guy was on Tinder and he was it's over in Europe. And he was basically like portraying himself as this super rich savvy, like handsome Israeli man. And he is handsome. He is very good looking, but you can't fake that. But he was taking money from women to pay for other women that he was dating. It said that he's stolen a total of like $10 million totals. He was wanted in like four countries. He's out of jail. He has a tech talk right now. I came across it on my four U page, just scrolling the other day.
But he tried to rejoin. So he has different aliases and different names. If you've not seen the documentary, the ending of it. One knowing that he's out of jail is not satisfying, but the ending of it and what happened and how he got caught is so satisfying. It is insane. And I mean, truly the depths that this man would go to to convince these women, that like he was sending the same photos to women, he was sending the same video he would send. And he would record like seven different ones with a different girl's name.
So they were all getting literally the same videos, but their name was in it. So they didn't think anything about it, but he was just recording them one after another, sending them to all these different women. He said that he was the heir to some diamond fortune. That's actually a real family that said that they've tried to Sue him for misrepresentation. I mean, he, it is in sane. He like fakes that he was attacked, all this other stuff. One of the women that he dated did get attacked and he was not there. And I mean, they showed photos. When I say she was attacked, she was attacked.
Like it is that it is bad. And so there's the, the documentary, it follows three women who have all been involved in this whole scheme, but there's way more women than that, like way more. And it is insane. And he just like, well, he was taking money from these women saying that like he had enemies after him and that he needed this amount of money in order to do this and that, you know, I mean, one girl, he had her take out a $250,000 loan. Another one, he had her take out a credit card in her name. And he constantly kept asking her to get the limit raised.
And she was like, I can't, I don't make enough money for that. She thought that she was getting something real, but he actually forged a paycheck to her for a different amount. He was forging paperwork showing that he made payments to these women and saying that like, oh, the transfers coming through, it's coming through. And it never did. It is insane. He's been doing it for years, but that's despicable. He tried to rejoin Tinder at a Tinder Bandon period. They were like, we have technology that will detect him if he tries to rejoin. Cause he's very distinct look and he's very handsome, but I'm just saying it's horrible.
It's bad. Like it is really bad. And I mean, he's taking private jets, places like it. It truly has no bounds. It it's, it's crazy. But I'm just saying, compared to that, if a girl wants a different guy to take her to dinner out a couple nights a week, I mean a look who am I to judge? No, one's getting hurt. It's just a meal. I'm not, I didn't, I'm just saying, I know. I'm just saying, I don't know why you're attacking. I'm not attacking you. I'm attacking, I'm attacking the patriarchy in general. I'm just saying like, you got really hot at that Nash straightening because you know, like frustrating. It's frustrating. Both.
Okay. And it's just ridiculous. Okay. Taylor swift, she has a song about it. If I was a man that I'd be the man, because she just talks about how like, if a woman is super business savvy and she's kind of cut throat, like she's made out to be a B, but if a man does it, he's just a smart businessman. And so in her that's, it's really good song. Love Taylor swift. But in the song she says, if our man then I'd be the man. Yeah. And I'm like, you're not wrong, not wrong. Just saying Mary. She was, she was entertaining a few minute at a time. And look there's, there's no saying they didn't know.
They might've known. Maybe they were all fighting for her affection and her attention. Who knows. I mean, if she, If she lived in a boarding house, I mean, everybody knew that everybody's comings and goings. I mean, They, they knew as we know by our very first case, I mean just saying, and so, and this actually plays into it too because some of them even lived in the boarding house. They knew Who was calling, just saying, just saying it was one of these borders that Mary set her sights on. His name was Daniel Payne. Daniel was a clerk in a cork cutter. And by the early summer of 1841, they were engaged after church on Sunday, July 25th, 1841.
Mary told her fiance and her mother that she was going to New Jersey to visit a relative, some refer to this relative as an aunt, whose name is miss Downing's others just say relatives. So again, unsure of what it is. It is agreed upon that. It is a relative. It is agreed upon that. It is a relative and it is agreed upon that. Mary said she would be back the next day. Yes. A severe storm came in, which I'm sure James Spann could have foretold. But yes, this is a little, this a little bit before his time he had the national weather Service Founder was born that she was born. Well, actually by this point, he would have been about three, but we can't really expect him to be amazing.
We, you know, which we don't know. So a storm hit that night. And when she did not return on Monday morning, her mother assumed that the weather delayed her a little bit and she just decided to stay longer because I may make sense or not. You Just had to go on assumption that this time there were no cell Phones by Monday night, Mary still had not come back. Well, her mother Phoebe was able to get a message. And this is another thing that was in some, not in others. Her mother Phoebe was able to get a message to miss Downings and to everyone's shock, Ms.
Downings had not seen her the night before and she was not expecting her either. Oh, at the time some said she had simply run away, possibly in another attempt to get attention. Seeing as she received so much, the first time marries fiance, Daniel grew increasingly concerned with Mary's disappearance. And that concern turned into fear when he remembered all of the stories about gangs of robbers and rapists that he had seen in the penny papers lately, two days after Mary had left the house, Daniel decided to go ahead and officially report her missing with the authorities. Her mother placed an advertisement in the following day son asking for anyone who might've seen Mary to have the girl contact her as quote, it is supposedly some accident has befallen her, but it was specifically noted that foul play was not suspected.
One person who saw the advertisement was Arthur chameleon. Wow. He was Mary's ex-boyfriend and some say her ex fiance, Ooh, the plot. And he was also a previous boarder at her mother's house. Arthur decided to take a ferry over to New Jersey and see if he could find Mary himself. It was on July 28th, 1841. When two men were walking near symbols cave on the shores of the Hudson river in Hoboken, New Jersey, they noticed a large object bobbing up and down in the water with the way there was a rowboat nearby.
And they used it to see what the object might be when they dragged the object into the boat to have a better look. They realized it was the body of a young woman. They rode the body back to shore and ran to get help. Right? As the woman's body was placed on the shore, Arthur had arrived and noticed all of the commotion. He was able to positively identify the woman as Mary Cecilia Rogers and the area where her body was found was dubbed murder thicket. Oh, that will come back into play murderer, according to the coroner Mary's dress and hat or torn.
And she was injured and bruised possibly from being beaten, whether this beating was from her murder or possibly from floating in the water. Cause you know, kind of like it just, just bumping the bumping and the way and everything like that. So it wasn't really sure as to what that came from. There were finger marks found on her throat suggesting that she had been strangled, the corner took special care to note. She was not pregnant. And quote had evidently been a person of chastity and correct habits. Oh, was, you know how I love that such a wonderful anyways, there were no cracked habits for women.
It's fine. You can do what you want. Anyways. Arthur was of course questioned by the police. It was odd that he arrived right as her body was discovered and even more odd that he had a previous relationship with her. I was kind of thinking of that. Could it have been jealousy? The police were actually able to rule Arthur out and they moved on to their next suspect. And if you guessed the next one would be her fiance, Daniel Payne, then you would be right. Elana cookie. After all Daniel was the last person to see Mary alive. The night that she left, then a rumors started to circulate that the seemingly happy couple was not happy at all.
Oh, allegedly the couple had been fighting and Mary had threatened to call off the engagement just before her murder. Local papers wrote all about the beautiful cigar girl and her mysterious death. The events of her death were sensationalized and received national attention. I can't imagine He was being sensationalized. I can't imagine Papers. What insane that doesn't happen anymore. The details of the case suggested that she was either murdered or maybe dumped by a local abortionist named matter, Marcel, after a failed procedure, even though Daniel had an airtight alibi for the time of Mary's death, he continued to be a suspect, the new Yorker, which I put in parentheses, just to be clear, this is a publication unrelated to the current new Yorker magazine, different.
This is new dash Yorker. Whereas though there's the new Yorker, just good to make a decision. I mean, you gotta make sure they were, it didn't prevent them from suggesting in August of 1841 that he had had a hand in Mary's death. It didn't the coroner say that she was chased. So to say, So we'll get more into it. There is. And this is from the new Yorker. This is what they said. Quote, there is one point in Mr. Payne's testimony, which is worthy of remark.
It seems that he had been searching for Ms. Rogers, his betrothed two or three days yet when he was informed on Wednesday evening that her body had been found at Hoboken. He did not go to see it or inquire into the matter. In fact it appears that he never went at all though. He had been there inquiring for her before. This is odd and should be explained. I mean, you're not the police, but okay. But I mean, I Have to say that is curious. I'd Want to see for myself and say, Hey, I want to, it's true. I want, we also don't know how quickly her body was brought back over.
We don't know where it was. There's a lot of different things. So several weeks later, two boys who were out in the woods collecting sassafras for their mother, found some articles of women's clothing, including a handkerchief with the initials. M R Hmm. This was right near Sybil's cave where Mary's body had been discovered. The harrowed reported that quote, the clothes had all evidently been there at least three or four weeks. They were all mildewed down hard. The grass had grown around and over some of them, the scarf and the petticoat were crumpled up as if in a struggle.
Hmm. Miss Frederica loss was the mother of the two boys. And she ran a Tavern called Nick Morris house, which was not far from where the body was found. She claimed to have seen Mary in the company of a tall, dark stranger on the evening of July 25th, that you ordered lemonade and then left the Tavern. Later that night, she heard a scream coming from the woods at the time she thought it was one of her sons, but after finding her boy safely inside, she decided it must've been an animal. But now that these items were found so close to her Tavern, she felt certain that it had to have come from Mary papers across New York and new England started publishing salacious details and even some not so accurate details about the murder.
I mean really I'm straw, right in Ellicottville New York, one reporter lamented the quote sovereignly manner in which the coroner at Hoboken performed his duties. But outside of Philadelphia, other papers wondered if the death had actually been a death by suicide. Even the governor of New York at the time, William H Seward got involved and published an announcement in several New York papers of a $750 reward for any information that helped solve the crime.
Then on October 7th of the same year, Daniel Payne traveled to the murder thicket. This was after a drinking binge that he had taken across Hoboken. He had started drinking heavily after Mary's death and started telling people that he was seeing her ghost. At some point in the night, he drank a bottle of laudanum while sitting on a bench outside of symbols cave. That's not good for anybody. His body was found the next morning, only a few hundred yards from where Mary had been discovered. Yikes. A note found in pain's pocket, read quote to the world.
Here I am on the spot. God forgive me for my misfortune in my misspent time. Yikes. So he committed to, he completed I'm learning. He completed suicide. Correct? So, but his, his note didn't really give much explanation just in his misspent time. So does that mean, I think he's since married, She's just saying in his misspent time on earth, like to, you know, like that's what I'm Saying. Like just give Me for my misfortune that I had in the misspent time that I also had like, forgive me for all of this.
But it said that he was pretty heavily like accused of Yeah. And I mean that, that can take a toll on you just emotionally. Like, I didn't do this, I didn't do this, but people, I mean, and especially if it makes the state, you know, that more than it makes national news and the governor is getting involved in it, which, you know, Hey you're wow. That's, that's big, you know, man, I'm sure that that would be really hard to make everybody knows who you are, especially in that town. So, I mean, you'd have to move to, to get away from that. I mean, you know, and then that's something that you could actually do. You couldn't do that now because people would find out your name and, you know, but I mean, But keep in mind.
So her body was found at the end of July, his death by suicide was the beginning of October. So that's not long. I mean that's two months essentially when you kind of two months in a few days that all of this was happening. And so I'm sure it was, you know, a whirlwind of horrible people were garbage. We've discussed this. I mean, so I mean, there's no telling what would've happened. And then he also said he started seeing her ghost and he's telling a lot of people This and that would creep you out. And so I'm sure, you know, oh, freak me out, regardless of whether people's beliefs on that situation, you know, still, you know, whether you do believe that he truly was seeing her ghost or you believe that he was drinking to a point where he was hallucinating either way in his mind, it was real.
Exactly. Exactly. And He's seeing his, he can't Get away from it. He got away from the bliss of where he is. And so I'm sure you, he thought, you know, if I drink more, it'll stop or it'll, or I'll forget about it or, but it wasn't working. Right. So, you know, and you also have so many people that are looking at you that are saying like, cause what is, I mean, what is the thing in true crime? The husband did it like that is The thing. And I mean, you also think about, I mean, at that time or a special, well now, I mean, you know, you see in New York, you know, even though it's such a big city, the blocks are, you know, people know, You know, because you're in certain boroughs, like you have little boroughs of little pockets of people that all know Exactly.
And so, you know, you will be, he'll be getting those look Well, and also New York is not anywhere near what it is, like, what it is, it's much smaller. And everyone knew who Mary was because she, because she was so famous, like even Yeah, about her, all these famous people, newer and summing. Yeah. He was getting, because he was the lucky guy that was going to marry the beautiful cigar girl. And so, you know, he was getting all these looks of disgust or either a pity or have discussed depending on how they judged him. And they judged him. And it's very unfortunate because, you know, he, he thought that was the only way I will only way out for him.
And, you know, we never speculate on someone's mental health or the reasoning behind their decisions in those ways. And it is very sad and it is very unfortunate. And, but yeah, he also, and that's also why it's, it was continued to be called murder thicket. Oh. Cause I mean, cause he was there as well. It Turned, I mean and drinking an entire bottle Or bottle of That's that's a lot. And apparently, I don't know, cause I've not really, you know, had locked them, but apparently it's, I mean, I've read a lot of books and you know, such apparently it's not the best taste in the world. No. Well, I imagine though, if you're already kind of dreaming, if you already Cups that Amanda's saying just bless his bone.
It's difficult. A year later, Frederico loss was shot apparently accidentally by her son shot and killed on her death bed. She confessed that Mary Rogers had come to her Tavern that Sunday night with a tall and dark doctor who performed an abortion on her, Mary had died of complications and miss losses son had taken her body to the river. Although it's contradicted some of the facts of the case, the strangulation marks on Mary's neck and the coroner's assertion, that she was a person of chastity and correct habits, regardless, miss losses story became the popularly accepted truth.
However, another version of this story is that the murder was done by the infamous Madame resell, which we talked about just before she was an early abortionist who practiced while it was still a felony to practice. Madame resell died by suicide in 1878 bit of a trigger warning people, I'm sorry, by cutting her own throat in her bathtub, ma she is actually buried and sleepy hollow cemetery. There is another suspect that we have not discussed yet.
And that is John Anderson. It's speculated that he had made amorous advances to Mary that were rejected while she worked for him. Although he's buried in Greenwood cemetery in Brooklyn, he actually died in 1881 in Paris. He claimed in his last days that he was being tormented by Mary's ghost, OMA newspapers offered several speculations as to the identity as to the identity of Mary's murderer.
But the police did not accept the Tavern owners story and no arrests were ever made. Hm. Eventually the papers lost interest and stopped reporting about Mary. Well, I mean, but there is one man that did not lose interest and that is Edgar Allen Poe. There is, he was a former new Yorker and he remembered Mary from her first quote disappearance in 1838, as the news of her murder reached him. He became fixated and followed every detail in November of 1842, which was just a year after Mary's death.
Pope published the first part of the mystery of Marie Rogers. Yet this is the second detective novel and the sequel to murders at the Rue morgue. The opening of post story made his intent clear quote, the extraordinary details which I am now called upon to make public will be found to form as regard sequence of time, the primary branch of a series of scarcely intelligible, coincidences whose secondary or concluding branch will be recognized by all readers in the late murder of Mary Cecilia Rogers at New York and his story.
He not so subtly challenged that he changed everything to Paris and he changed the murder victim's name to Marie Rogers. Yet he was so confident in his detective skills that he even claimed to have solved the real life case in the story's introduction. When he said, quote, all argument founded upon the fiction is applicable to the truth. And the investigation of the truth was the object. His story was popular with the public, but the police wrote off posed theories despite promising to solve the crime post speculated regarding many suspects, but he never settled on one pole, continued updating the story with the new evidence for years, regardless, the mystery of Marie Rajet is considered to be the first work of fiction that used a real murder as its source material.
That's interesting. And that is the unsolved murder of the beautiful cigar girl, Mary Cecilia Rogers. Well, I want to know nobody knows. And I am. That is interesting that it led, it led to Edgar Allen Poe's. He was obsessed with This story. He was an odd bird. I love him. Of course you did. I love him. I know, but he truly was. And you can read. So that's why this case is so like it's so widespread there's Because you want to know the, where the inspiration for that. There's so much like this truly I could turn this into an entire podcast.
There's that much material on it, but he just became truly obsessed by her murder. And he, he was also someone that was speculated to also be a frequent horror of the tobacco Emporium. And so even though it's never, like truly said that he was, he knew her story back from when she, you know, the original story of her disappearing. Right. And so he totally remembered who she was and being in the same literary circles as all these other people, he used, certainly heard about her Absolutely firsthand. So he truly became obsessed.
He did not believe in the abortion story. He did not think that it was true. However, if you do look up Mary Cecilia Rogers and her death, truly the assumed story, that's like kind of in the sources that are very straight forward with what's going on. They do just say that she was dumped in the Hudson river after a botched abortion attempt. Like that is the story. That is where the story ends. That's where a lot of that's just been the assumed story and anybody who hasn't looked into it, they assumed that's what happened, but it's plausible. It's plausible, but there's so many reasons why it's not plausible because of what the coroner said.
Yeah. And it's like, I'm sorry, but while medicine wasn't great. Back then, I'm pretty sure you'd know that that had, I mean, I don't know, but, and it's also said too, that like, I know, it's sorry, Brad, that I know this, but a body discarded in water is actually more prone to like stay intact as far as like bodily evidence because of freezing temperatures and different things like that. If a body is left out for scavengers to get right, you're less likely to know the cause or, or have different things.
And you know, she, it, if they, if he did do write a correct autopsy and all that fun stuff, you know, he would see if there was water in her lungs. And if, if it had been, you know, like a drowning, if it had been a completion of suicide, then there would have been water in her lungs. Why would there be strangle marks around her neck? Would there Be strangulation marks? I mean, you know, let's look at all these. I mean, it just, there's a lot of things that it doesn't add up. It doesn't make sense. And then it brings me back to the previous story three years earlier, where it was said that she was seen with a toll Naval officer and Frederico, Los kept saying that she saw her in her Davern with a tall, dark handsome man.
So that makes me wonder, was something going on? Did, was that like a rekindled relationship thing? Did he get jealous and murder her and get rid of her body? Because she was engaged now because she, if you believe the story of him, she quit very quickly after rumors started about him, she quit her job. Yeah. So it's like, is that the light? Again? She go and finally say, Hey, I'm marrying this guy, you know, no more, It's too late for you. I'm sorry. You know, what, what was really going on? I w was this, Hey, this is the last chance, you know, I love you, but you know, either marry me or I'm marrying this guy, could that have been well, And it was well, and for Frederica loss to say that it wasn't long after they left that she heard someone screaming that it's like, okay, well what happened there?
How did you know? And I really don't know her sons, if there's one article that I read that said her sons were arrested in conjunction to the murder at some point, but then they were let go because there was no evidence to, and how Old were her Sons? It say, but I mean, one of them shot her. Yeah. So I, I D I don't know. And then for, I wouldn't imagine that they would be young if they were said to have helped someone dispose of a body. Well, but you got to think about, at that time, kids were expected to grow up faster than they are Now. I'm not, I'm not 12 years old now, and 12 years old in various.
So, I mean, I'm, I'm not really sure how old her, her sons were, but there's so much cause you thought you had it figured out. I wonder with her being away for a few days, I really thought that maybe she was, she had gone to, to get rid of an unwanted child. I really thought maybe that was Washington. That is why she was gone for a few days. Why she didn't say anything. Exactly. That is why she left a suicide note because she didn't know if she actually, but when you think there's a three-year gap and she came back. Yeah. And what also makes me wonder is maybe that was part of it.
And because I went to do it Again and it was with the same person who did it before, And then what, you know, think there are lots of theories. There's lots. I mean, like I said, there could be an entire set aside podcast for this because there are true, You know, what maybe the coroner was the one that did it and the, in the corner, you know, he said to cover his tracks, Maybe I was getting paid some money on the side from Madam resell know, because it was a felony. Maybe he was getting some extra pocket change to say that some of those things were a murder. You know, it's like, there's so many things at that time.
And then to me, Good point to say, oh no, well there's no way it could have been that because she was chased. You know? I mean, absolutely. There, there could have been a page. And it's just, it's interesting to me because then to also think about when anybody asked her, where she had been, she said she went to the countryside and She, and she got angry, But also think, and she was sad and there were all these different things about her and these different things. And like, it's, there's no telling what could have happened. But also that makes me think too, when, and there may even be some people who were older today that remember when this would happen, when a girl would become pregnant, she would go stay with an aunt and she would go live with an aunt for a while.
And then all of a sudden she'd come back. And then her, she had a baby brother because her parents adopted the child, you know, like that was always something that happened. That's part of what happened with Ted Bundy. Honestly, his, his sister was his mother and it, and that happened. And so it's like where they sent was that still like the phrasing back then is, oh, she went to the countryside for, you know, visit family. They didn't come back with a new sibling. They just came back after they recuperated and the child had been, you know, so then it's Or whatever you said that time that you went to the countryside to go visit family.
You left this time to go visit family. So it's like, what, what is going on? And then you, then you just end up dead. Yeah. And you know, I couldn't pull something like that off because I chatter so much. And I tell you about all the things I could never pull off, something like that. You could probably straight up Serial killer. I mean, not yet. No. And you wouldn't kill me. And the words have too much in the words, a little Wayne I and a killer, but don't push me. So, But I couldn't True. My face would give me away, but it's true. Face talks out of turn too much. Fine. Does to an extent If you, if a person knows.
Yeah. If, But if not, then no, it doesn't. If the Person knows you, they know your, your little tails, but you don't, you don't have big tails. I'm so flipping expressive. That's true. I'm not at all My face spoke out of turn at Disney world and it was hilarious. I just it's it. I mean, yeah, I definitely don't have very many Towels. I do, and I can't help it. I Have, I have looks though. Yes. You've know my law. Like I I'll just say spit it out. I can talk without, without saying anything. I have an entire . It's very interesting, but yeah.
I mean, I, there's so many different ways that this story could go. There's so many different, lots of different ways. I mean, and then what if it was John Anderson? How does that come into play? What did she just happen to run into him? And he was like, oh, let's go to the Tavern and get some lemonade. And then he kills her or because he made an advance on her again. And she said, no, I don't think it was him. And I mean, I don't think that it was, but if he's on his death bed saying that he's seen her ghost, why are you seeing her ghost? That was 1881 sheet. This was 40 years ago. That is him just wrestling. Well, but you know what, as you, I have heard a lot that when you reach the end of your life, you just kind of think about the, the best time that's true.
You know, like when my, my grandmother had dementia and before she became non-verbal, my little brother would walk through the house and she would call him by my dad's. And she would call my dad by my grandfather's name. And it just, she, she reverted back to a good time in her life. Now we don't know how God or whatever, but a lot of time you do kind of think back on a happy time in your life and said, maybe he was religious thinking about that time. And now he really did wish that it had turned out differently with her because she was such a beautiful, charming, kind.
Wonderful. Yeah. Interesting. Because they, a lot of people, especially people who work in assisted living facilities or they work in nursing homes, a lot of people will say which again, depending on your personal beliefs and what you think about different things, a lot of people say the reason that children and elderly people can see the other side is because they're closer to the other side. So like, children are closer to it cause they're their children. And then when you get older, you're closer to it yet again. And so a lot of people say like that work in assisted living homes and nursing homes, they'll say that their patients will say that they see their lost, loved ones.
And that they're like right there in front of them talking to them. And so it's like, it's like, was that something, did he, was he just coming to the close of his life? And he just thought like, I mean, maybe she was there. Maybe she wasn't. But he was just at that point in his life where, you know, he thought he saw her there, or I don't know. But he kept saying for years that he saw her ghost. So I don't know. I don't know. But I do know that there's a few people on tech. Talk that, talk about like the funny things that have happened while they live in a nurse. Like they worked at a nursing home or something. Oh, I bet there are stories There. And then I read this article where it was like deathbed confessions that were given to hospital workers or things like that.
And I mean, some of them are crazy. Y the ones that I love are things I've read different things that patients have done coming out of or going under anesthesia. And y'all, there's funny. There was one that was like a deathbed confession. And they said that it was right before this woman had died and she wasn't in a nursing home, but she was like, she was lucid. She was, and she, the person said that she just looked at them and she was like, I should probably tell someone before I go, they don't need to look under the front stairs of the house.
What, well, now we got to go look under the front stairs of the house. It's like, I mean, that makes you go. I don't know that I would ever have looked into the front stairs of the house, but now I'm going to have to. Yeah. And there were other people, there were other like women who confess to like poisoning their husbands and different things. Cause like for the longest time, people couldn't trace arsenic. So you could just easily, I mean, it's like buyer role and you just got a, so I don't know. It's funny. And I don't know, I'm not sure as far as the end, the end of her life and of his life was coming to fruition.
If, if that's what it was, I don't think it was him. I just find it interesting that even after 40 years, he still said like, I continue to see her ghost. And he was in Paris at this point. So, and It was Paris that there was a woman that was her specialty. Like she worked at an apothecary and that the women would come to see her. If they were in an arranged marriage or a disagreeable marriage, they would come to see her and she would help them get rid of their problem, which would be a husband. And I'm not promoting and saying, it's a good thing place. But like, she was, I can't remember her name, but she may be known for, does It, Kayla, Does she meet me?
And I am her. And she is my past life. I'm just saying, you never know there. Look, you said, I got a good poker face. They'd be like, it's really do excuse me. That. And I'm like, I mean, I can't remember what the name was or whatever, but it, it, it was like for the, the, the upper class, you know, those were all arranged marriages and such. And you know, some of those men not cool. Let me spell it as women. Not cool too. But yeah, she was like, she was known for assisting in such things. I have a problem. Oh, Really? It's about, about 180 pounds, sweaty Meme.
And then me going, do you have your papers in order? Make sure you get the money in The house Check before you murder him. Make sure everything is emerged Is that killing is bad behind. Do not kill people. Well, that's wraps up another case for us for the week. We have a website where you can find any and all owing, you see information you were looking for. It is one nation under crime.com. We are one nation under crime, anywhere that you would like to look for us, please keep in mind. We do have a YouTube channel as well that we upload all the episodes too.
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There's I mean, there's several on there that, that, it's kind of surprising. I'm like, who found it that week? Because it's just, it's interesting, like how those are found, but how has Madame a lot of re she's she's on there, but she hasn't been on there long. So yeah. So not too many yet, but yeah, so you can go on there as well. And some people just don't like to use podcast apps, so you can always use YouTube to go find those. If you love our podcast, as much as we do go rate and review our podcast, I'm on apple. We shouldn't have to say this, but five stars, five stars. Only if you have nothing to say, keep it nice to yourself. Yep. Something like that. Something like it.
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And we appreciate you guys for listening to this week's episode of one nation under crime. We will see you here. Same time, different crime next week. And remember there isn't always Liberty and justice for all. Especially if you have an unsolved murder. Yeah. We'll try to figure it out though. Maybe I'm perplexed. I want to know you always are unkind goodbye.